Still think we shouldn't accept refugees?

http://news.sky.com/story/1548073/hungary-tells-germany-to-stop-taking-refugees

At least Hungary is pleading for sanity. They are begging Germany to stop it's open door policy as it is causing numbers to skyrocket well beyond their ability to cope.

Dude, Hungary is the most xenophopic country in the EU and Orban is nothing less than a fascist. If you are truly a leftist, you should't use "sanity" and "Hungary" in one sentence. The are the ones using NATO barbwire with razorsharp blades to stop the refugees.

He is pretty far to the right but calling him a fascist seems a bit of hyperbole. Let me know when he opens death camps then you can call him a fascist.

So according to you, fascism starts with opening death camps? The nationalistic Hungarian government openly collaborates with antisemitic parties (Orban came to power only by making an alliance with them), it is censoring the media and is limiting freedom of speech. Sounds pretty fascist to me. Orban is taking money from the EU while kissing Putins ass. Orban should be very careful, or the other EU members will begin to question Hungarys membership in the EU one day. Some of them already do. And this has nothing to do with the refugee crisis.

Ok, I did not know they were anti-semetic. Do you have a link?

http://www.ibtimes.co.uk/viktor-orb...inister-centre-europes-refugee-crisis-1518346

I read that and it seems to make him sound like a self serving populist and all around opportunist. It does not mention anti-sematism or censorship so I will have to read more about the topic.

Google "Jobbik" and do some reading, this is all it takes. You will find out that Orbans party Fidesz and Jobbik have strong relationships.

I saw that last year John McCain called him a neo-fascist because Orbans was trying to cut side deals with Russia.

Yeesh, not wading through 10 frigging pages... My take.

1) The media are arseholes. Immigrants are bad, until they die, at which point looking sombre and tasking the same governments they've spent the last few weeks calling "soft on migrants" to, errr, "help the migrants more."

2) The further left don't want us in Syria and Libya because hundreds of dead kids they never see doesn't get their righteous druthers up like placards saying "No War for Oil" do, but of course it's only the people with the money or the wherewithal who can manage to escape in the first place. The truly desperate are still stuck getting killed, but since they aren't dying on beaches or trucks near us they're not real or something. So yeah, that sizeable branch of the Left can go fuck themselves too.

3) Nothing wrong with housing refugees, but the EU response has been pretty pathetic, and, as pointed out in 2), these refugees are the brightest and best ones, so if they're going to end up staying in the EU permanently that doesn't bode well for their original homelands' future. Germany is being particularly pragmatic here - clearly merely fucking over the rest of the EU economically has gotten boring, so they're expanding their efforts by hoovering up the desired demographics from war torn areas to fix their own demographic troubles. Obviously they're not doing it on purpose, but the long term consequences will likely mean the Middle East continues cantering back to the Stone Age.

4) Arab and Islamic solidarity seems to consist of "Fuck off to Europe, we've all the Far East slaves we can work to death, so y'know... kthanxbye!"*

5) Simply absorbing a constant line of refugees may be humanitarian, but it's not solving the issues which is their homelands' are being destroyed. If we see another expansion of this, what's the end game? A quarter of the ME living in the EU, quarter of them rotting in the sun, a quarter of them as fish food in the Med and a quarter scratching a living between the wreckage and the IEDs that remains of their cities?

All that tells me we need to create some kind of enclave in Syria and Libya. Refugees can be processed and safely emigrated, we can start to build up a stable area and expand it if needed so less and less want to leave, but instead help build up their homeland.

In Libya that shouldn't be too difficult, can even be sold as a neutral area for the two competing governments to get their act together. Syria would be more difficult, Putin would go nuts, and be unlikely to even to accept a joint proposal. Same with Iran. But that's why we have horse trading.

But yeah, things aren't going to improve until we finish what we started, rather than what we have done which is light the fire and wonder why people are running the fuck out as we saunter off.

I just don't see the political will though. The EU is a pretty useless entity when it comes to anything meaningful, we've the right who don't want the expense of any action, the left who see any action as being some form of US proxy aggression and whine about political solutions.

*The wealthier ones at least, many neighbouring countries have shown great charity by absorbing numbers the EU would baulk at.

Also, the current crisis would likely make a good paper for anyone wanting to study the size and complexity of social security systems with a country's capacity to absorb refugees.

Seems to me that the more social security systems you have, the greater the number of bottlenecks in absorbing people and the greater the strain on those systems. Be interesting to see the numbers on that, not least as it would inform policy as to where to place migrants/refugees and would set limits on volumes a country could reasonably expect to absorb without media boogeymen.

Several climate scientists are pointing out that the current unrest was caused by anthropogenic climate change. The US military has been wargaming this event for a decade now.

So huge drought for 5 years caused by increased carbon gas emissioins, which lead to rural flight to urban centers for water, which lead to political instability, which lead to the collapse of the Assad regime.

In simple cartoon form:
http://www.fark.com/goto/8847145/ye...is-comic-was-produced-in-partnership-by-years

Report on the science from March 2015:
http://www.scientificamerican.com/article/climate-change-hastened-the-syrian-war/

The PNAS abstract:
http://www.pnas.org/content/112/11/3241.abstract

Captain X: I can't understand science, so its dumb.

@Demiurge

Indeed the unrest in Syria started do to a protracted draught. The country has very high trade barriers as it tries to be self sufficient but virtually no social safety net. Crops failed three years in a row, food prices spiked, rural farmers desperately moved to the cities hoping for work but there was already low wages and high unemployment. That is pretty much when the fighting started.

http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-33342272

Denmark is actually doing something extremely smart. They are reducing benefits for migrants by 50% but to encourage integration that 50% would be restored if the migrants learn to speak Danish and can pass a test on both Danish language as well as history and customs. They are paying for television ads in the middle east to make sure migrants know benefits have been slashed.

It seems to be working as the benefits migrants all skip Denmark and instead prefer to flood into Germany and Sweden where benefits are higher. I guess learning the language is just not something they want to do as that would restore all benefits.

So, you have evidence that none of the places marked "No War" are hosting significant numbers of refugees?

Turkey is but most of them in Turkey are trying to go to Germany or Sweden. Italy has very tight rules for refugees getting benefits so it is not surprising most of the boat people just transit through Italy on their way north to the benefits jackpot.

The key to working the system in Germany and Sweden seems to be to have lots and lots of kids. Which might explain the averaged 9.5 kids per couple given that 80% of them don't work and just suck up welfare. For generation after generation. I did the math earlier and a couple with 10 kids grosses $70k-$80k a year on welfare in Germany with lots and lots of free stuff (free food, utilities paid, cable tv, phone, internet, etc...).

To a third worlder it is pretty much heaven and the best possible life they can imagine. It is no wonder they all want this jackpot.

Turkey has about 2 million Syrian refugees - and no war. The refugees are then taking rubber boats over to Greece, which has no war. From Greece the refugees are moving north through Hungary, which has no war, through Austria, and into Germany and Sweden. The ones who made it to France keep forming mobs that try to climb on the trains to England.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...asing-truck-britain-just-day-calais-line.html

Truthfully, the UK's natural geographic defenses, in the form of the English channel, has kept most of them out but that doesn't mean the mobs aren't forming and trying. Hell, most of those seeking to get into England aren't even Syrians or Iraqis but Africans who are not fleeing war. They just are pure economic migrants.

Oh, and they are violent, very violent, forming gangs and attacking other gangs of African migrants. That is when they aren't busy attacking the police or setting fire to their refugee camps in an attempt to claim the camps aren't good enough for them. When the reporters ask them they say they want council houses in London.

9.5 kids per couple on average? You are right that a very high percentage of migrants are on welfare and will stay on welfare forever. Same for prison population, btw. However, where do you get these numbers from?!? 9.5 children on average? Now it is my turn to ask for a link.

It may be good idea to check different sources, not only rightwing blogs. Just like it is an excellent idea not to limit your sources to Amnesty International or Indymedia. Time to take a close look at your confirmation bias and to improve your media competence.

Wait.... does @Dinner consider pre-war Syria a third world country?

http://www.snopes.com/politics/religion/demographics.asp

I did some looking around and can't find the original source. Maybe I linked it, I am not sure. I did find that SNOPES article which rated the number as "mostly false" that muslims have 8.1 children per couple. It said the numbers used to be that high but that the figure is out dated as birth rates have been falling in recent decades. It also says it is true that religious families have the most kids and still hold on to extremely high birth rates.

So outdated figure according to Snopes.

Definitely a developing country. Yes. Certainly not first world.

Well, thank you, I guess... I still don't consider you a xenophobe or even a racist, but by posting false numbers, you only support the naive idealists who don't see any problems at all when it comes to immigration and would welcome half of the African population to Cental Europe with open arms, lol... Not that any of these guys post on Wordforge, I hope...

I thought this video made some good points. He also had some snide remarks I didn't like but most of his points are sound.

Funny when west African blacks migrate legally to the US (I have no idea how/logistics but they do) they do just fine. I know a shitload that came into the Army, and they have other family members here also (civilians) and they are all productive citizens too. If you told me I had to move into a neighborhood of Senegalese it wouldn't bother me in the least. So far ZERO African immigrants have been arrested around here, so that's a pretty good track record. But why are they always smiling and happy and friendly? I don't know, all I know is they make great soldiers. To be honest, most are Muslims but are not "death to America" Muslims (duh) so I have no complaints.

Part of the reason African blacks do well in the US is because they are basically the cream of the crop. If they don't have advanced degrees they don't get in and not surprisingly doctors and other high skilled individuals tend to both do well financially and be responsible parents.

With the illegals you are getting everyone so it is unlikely they will fair as well. Especially since large numbers of them are essentially illiterate without even basic job skills.

fare

They were clearly aligned with the Soviets.