It was, and we can't. Which would not necessarily be a bad thing, especially if they'd figured out how to wipe out STE, in the process, but they didn't, and I wasn't thrilled with how they rebooted the franchise. I've said this before, and I'll say it again: I have a feeling that when the "squee" factor wears off (and people watch this on DVD), they're going to revise their opinions of this film downwards. Just like many people did with [-]Retard[/-] Revenge of the Sith.
These things can still happen, just tweaked. Instead of being forced to return to Vulcan per se, the impetus can just be to meet with one's prebonded mate. Nothing stops T'Pring from being one of the 10k Vulcans left. And the tweaks can make it more interesting. Think of how more important the question of "Are thee Vulcan or human?" rings when there's only 10k Vulcans left. Or how the shock of Spock having had a fiancee would ring when he's dating Uhura, and she presumably doesn't know. Nothing to stop him from having an older brother. Not that him having an older brother (as opposed to a second cousin or best friend) is super-important for story telling purposes. It could still happen except to Cadet Kirk instead of Lt. Kirk. I don't see how. Pike could have already gone to Talos IV, either on the Enterprise or on another ship. Or he could go at some point after the movie on another ship. That could still happen. We didn't really get to see any of what Kirk did during his three years in the Academy. Again, he could have encountered the cloud during them as a cadet rather than a lieutenant. No reason why all these things couldn't come to pass, if slightly tweaked. Instead of David being fathered while in the Academy, it doesn't make much difference if he was fathered while Kirk was five years into his mission, or whatever. About the only thing I can think of that can't so easily be reconciled with the new movie is the surprise in "Balance of Terror" about the Romulans resembling Vulcans and the subplot with the prejudiced lieutenant. The main plot -- Romulans have a super-weapon and Kirk outthinks and fights the Romulan commander -- could still happen, but Kirk and various members of the Enterprise crew (at a minimum) have seen Romulans face to face. I suppose if you wanted to duplicate it, you could have it generally be unknown that Romulans and Vulcans are related. But in the end, I have to admit I don't really care too much if the "Star Trek 2.0" universe follows the exact same path as the "Star Trek Prime" universe. In fact, I would prefer that it doesn't. If I want to watch "Trouble with Tribbles" or "A Piece of the Action," I have perfectly working copies of those. I'd rather have it tell stories that are all-new, or at least, that haven't already been filmed before now. There must be hundreds that can be adapted into good movies.
And yet, none of that ceases to exist. It's all right there in the Star Trek we know. And in this timeline, other and equally interesting things can happen. Seems win/win to me.
You're kidding.... RIGHT? SAVING EARTH doesn't justify provoking Spock to an emotional reaction? They barely saved earth with Kirk getting the ship there as fast as possible after taking over, but you want Kirk to not do it because it hurts Spock's feelings? They should have instead just let earth blow up and rendezvoud with the fleet, huh?
Wrong as in Kirk being in the chian of command at all, let alone using some kind of regulation trick to take command of the ship. When one holds a brevet rank, it's only for as long as it's needed, and then the person goes back to whatever their normal rank was. Because Pike is only a captain and Kirk was not qualified to be the ship's first officer. They might promote a commissioned officer a grade, or two at the most depending on what happened, what posts were available, etc, but again, this is what medals are for. You will not see a brash twenty-something in command of a Nimitz class carrier. Why to you keep defending this? Even people who like this movie and know any better agree that this is pretty contrived and could have been easily fixed by some minor rewriting. Does one flaw somehow effect your enjoyment of this movie?
I'm not defending the move of Kirk to Captain, but it's definitely no deal breaker for me. There is no way a Cadet would have the know how to command a ship, he would need time under a commander with experience to learn. But it's just a movie... and he does have other experienced officers there to help him. If a guy saves a planet I agree that rules might be bent to give him some rank.
Again, the rules of the real world American armed forces don't have to map exactly onto whatever Starfleet's rules are. Is it realistic that a captain would name a cadet first officer? Apparently not. Is it impossible, or even improbable, that Starfleet would give a captain that much discretion? No. How do you know that captains don't have that authority or that he wasn't qualified to receive a battlefield promotion? Again, maybe under the closest real-world equivalent, a captain doesn't have the authority to promote whoever they want to whatever they want in a battlefield situation, but it's not the real world. And in terms of qualifications, again, there's no reason to think that Kirk was unqualified just because of his few years of service. I really think that in the scenario I described, there'd be immense political pressure to let the guy keep his rank and his ship, and there'd be rulebending. I'm not "defending" it so much as questioning the assumptions on which Kirk's sudden rise to captain seem problematic: that Starfleet works exactly like the real-world military does, that if a real-world person were the equivalent hero that Kirk was he wouldn't have gotten a bump up, all the way to captain. I don't think there's any basis to think that Starfleet works exactly like the real-world military does in this respect. I do think that if a real-world cadet could get a battlefield promotion to first officer and then took command in an innovative way and avoided a nuclear cataclysm that the military would bend its protocol and let that person get promoted to captain. Of course, we'll never really know about that because that's so improbable. Reasonable people can disagree. That seems more a question you should ask yourself, since I don't consider this a "flaw," and since as I suggested earlier, those who do can simply block out the scene at the end and imagine for themselves that in the time between the end of this movie and the beginning of the next one that Kirk worked his way up the ranks and "earned" command of the Enterprise.
Well, to play devil's advocate, provoking Spock into an emotional reaction wasn't necessarily the only way to save Earth. Spock could have potentially been convinced of the logic of going to Earth while retaining command. Especially if Kirk could fully or partially explain how he knew that Nero was going to Earth. (The explanation Spock Prime gave for why nu-Spock couldn't be told being so much b.s. ultimately, as the scene with the two Spocks essentially showed).
Well, given that it was coming from the other side of the universe, V'Ger is probably still on its way. And there's a good chance the whale probe is the same. Was anything said about the Constellation? If it was destroyed, the planet killer might make for a very interesting sequel...
Will Spock hear it's call if he's not on Mt. Seleya studying the Kolinar? Will the outcome still be the same if the Enterprise hasn't just undergone a major refit, under the command of Captain Decker, with Adm. Kirk around to steal her back from him and Ilia to be taken as an avatar for V'ger? No David Marcus might mean no Genesis device. And the Ent crew might not come across the Botany Bay to set the Space Seed/TWOK events in motion anyway, which means no battle with Kruge, no cloaking BOP to take back in time, and they can't be sitting at Vulcan when Starfleet HQ and all surrounding ships are disabled by the probe in the first place.
[action=Paladin]imagines a three-way battle between V'Ger, Probe, and the Doomsday Machine...[/action]
None of those things you just listed is relevant to V'ger still existing and still on its way to Earth to find the creator. The timeline before the destruction of the USS Kelvin is the same. That means the Voyager Six probe was still launched and found itself across the galaxy somehow. It's only the events after the destruction of the USS Kelvin that the timeline has changed. V'Ger is still heading towards Earth. There is still time for a "Captain Decker" to show up and time for an Admiral Kirk to get back the Enterprise. The movie obviously is the start of Kirk and crews first five year mission. So Spock hears V'Ger. Except it's heard at the colony studying Kolinar and not at Vulcan. Big whoop. Again they are on their first five year mission. Plenty of time for all those tings to happen. And even if Genesis won't exist in this new timeline the whale probe could still exist. Instead of using a Bird of Prey they just use the Enterprise to go back.
No, but they are relevant to setting the stage for what may have been the only formula for averting disaster. Maybe, maybe not. It's fun to speculate. Are you repeating that because you don't think I already fucking know? As of right now, their surviving that first 5 year mission is no longer a certainty. Good luck landing that in Central Park. Especially since the "new" Constitution class could be as big as the "old" Galaxy class, using the Kelvin's crew compliment as a basis for speculation.
I know that most of you are just nerd wanking, but you seem to have a problem grasping the concept of a blank slate. Besides, everyone knows Abrams loves long complex arcs, I'm looking forward to seeing what he can come up with.
It certainly seems like that since your crying over things that could still happen. Just happen in a different way. Just so you know: They are on their first five year mission. Please..... This is the Enterprise and Kirk, Spock, and McCoy. You really think they are not going to survive the fictional universe they are in? Not much a money making franchise if they kill them off. No matter what happens they will all survive. Paramount, aka God of Star Trek, will make sure they make it. Who said anything about landing it? They do have a shuttlecraft and transporters. In fact I can already see a humorous scene of Scotty bragging how incredible it was that he beamed up two whales and a bunch of water. and if need be they could always steal a Bird of Prey to satisfy the nit-pickers like you. Of course I hope they don't redo any Star Trek movie. I want new adventures.
Apparently they have a lot of similarities otherwise, not that it matters that much - any organization that would place a 3rd year cadet in command of a top of the line ship like that is pretty stupid. Because he was a cadet on probation - cadets are outside of the chain of command and can't give orders to anyone. Not to mention that being a cadet kind of suggests that the training is not over yet. Try no years of service. No, not really. Starfleet doesn't have to work exactly like the modern US military for this not to make sense, it just doesn't make sense at all. And yes, you are defending this contrivance because you keep coming up with even more contrivances in a vain attempt to explain it. You don't give commands on that scale to inexperienced officers, or in this case cadets. Would they give such an officer medals? Most definitely. Would they do what they could to help this officer along so they have opportunity to make a great, experienced officer? Again, most definitely. But no one in their right mind would hand a kid a ship like this. And that's what I'm doing. Uh, no, there are many flaws about this movie which is why I dislike it. The only people who bend over backwards instead of acknowledging something as a mistake are the ones who like it and want everything to be perfect about it.
Why on Earth should we assume "no David marcus"? Kirk spent three years (at least) in the Academy. I'm sure he banged out plenty of little soldiers in the right places in that period of time. No reason one of them couldn't have been Carol Marcus. Maybe it was a more casual relationship, maybe not. But Kirk Prime didn't even know about David so clearly it's possible for NuKirk to have planted the same seed.
If you are thinking of all this I'm sure Old Spock is too, he has plenty of time to write a bunch of stuff down he thinks will happen but might have been affected by the destruction of Vulcan and other events. He can also keep the federation from signing that treaty that keeps them from using cloaking devices. So you wouldn't need a BoP to accomplish your mission in 1980's Earth. I could go on but I feel like putting my inner-nerd on the back burner for the rest of the night. I like this blank slate, it's fun.
Nah, the Prophets of Bajor will quietly arrange things to ensure Earth survives intact in order to allow Ben Sisko to be born when he's supposed to be.
Nothing is ever "the only formula for averting disaster" for good enough writers. OTOH, if the writers aren't very good, the result will be a disaster even if Kirk etc. do manage to save the universe once again...
Que? Kirk knew about David, but hadn't seen him in years, so he had no idea what he looked like, or that David hated him. Here's a thought: With the alteration in the timeline (or splitting of it), its entirely possible that a different starship will be the one that finds the Botany Bay with Khan & Co. onboard. I think that we can safely assume that any other starship captain to discover Khan would quickly find himself breathing vacuum. So what does Old Spock do? Does he explain things to the Federation, since Khan being launched into space happens well before the Kelvin gets vaporized? Does he keep quiet about it? There are a number of things in the Trekverse, which have been set in motion long before the events in the NuTrek movie that have yet to be addressed. Call me "crazy," but I'm willing to bet that none of the inevitable sequels will address these matters in any way, shape, or form. Which is too bad, because I think that they would be prime fodder for some "Holy fucking shit! This is the greatest goddamn movie ever!" films.
Point of order: I think this reality is around a decade ahead of "our" reality. Kirk should be in his thirties before assuming command of the Enterprise.
Dude, it's a movie. Personally, I'm willing to overlook exactly how Kirk came to be in command of the Enterprise because I'm too stoked that he's in command of the fucking Enterprise for the next movie. Also, you're acting like recent history is the only thing that counts when considering what is militarily feasible. Lets not forget that history is filled with legends who took command at a young age. Alexander the Great ring a bell? Baldwin of Jerusalem won his first battle at age 16. The French once gave command of all their armies to a 17 year old girl. Henry V had already seen, conquered and died by the time he was 35 or so. Kirk is one of these. He is a singular individual. If you want a nice, clean career path in your Captains, then you should stick to TNG. In this thread, we're talking about a man who once stood in Court Martial and was punished with command of the fleet flagship.
