"The 1980's are calling to ask for their foreign policy back."

Discussion in 'The Red Room' started by Steal Your Face, Jan 8, 2022.

  1. Spaceturkey

    Spaceturkey i can see my house

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    I thought it was David Keith, not Dennis Hopper that got left in the gulag? :P
  2. tafkats

    tafkats scream not working because space make deaf Moderator

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    Regarding withdrawal of the invitation for Ukraine to join NATO: If Ukraine's sovereignty is to be respected, why shouldn't they be able to enter into a mutual defense pact with other nations if everyone involved agrees?
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  3. Order2Chaos

    Order2Chaos Ultimate... Immortal Administrator

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    If you're going to lift wholesale from Noam Chomsky's blog, you should at least cite it, or at least the The Nation article he was summarizing: https://www.thenation.com/article/world/ukraine-donbas-russia-conflict/. At least this guy acknowledges that it's actual Russian regular troops poorly disguised as volunteers, and not actual volunteers, unlike Chomsky.
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  4. Steal Your Face

    Steal Your Face Anti-Federalist

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    They should be able to what they want in that regard.
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  5. 14thDoctor

    14thDoctor Oi

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    Should Cuba be able to host Russian nuclear weapon installations, if everyone involved agrees? :shrug:
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  6. Order2Chaos

    Order2Chaos Ultimate... Immortal Administrator

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    A. Not everyone involved agrees; it's the US's invitation, and France and Germany are opposed. B. Because it's stupid to offer a mutual defense pact to a country with a high likelihood of being invaded in the near future, that's currently in the middle of a civil war.

    The author of that piece I linked seems a little naïve about Russia's intentions (especially toward the Baltic states) but he's not wrong that Ukraine is a lousy thing to go to nuclear war over, and a REALLY lousy thing to needlessly force ourselves to go to nuclear war over.
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  7. Steal Your Face

    Steal Your Face Anti-Federalist

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    They’re welcome to try.:storm:
  8. Bailey

    Bailey It's always Christmas Eve Super Moderator

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    So they should not be able to do whatever they want in that regard? Why not.
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  9. Bailey

    Bailey It's always Christmas Eve Super Moderator

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    Overlooking violations of the Budapest Memorandum would seem to undermine future non-proliferation efforts.
  10. Order2Chaos

    Order2Chaos Ultimate... Immortal Administrator

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    Little late for that, what with the whole invading the Donbas and annexing Crimea.
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  11. Steal Your Face

    Steal Your Face Anti-Federalist

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    I was specifically talking about them joining the UN, disingenuous piece of shit.
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  12. Bailey

    Bailey It's always Christmas Eve Super Moderator

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    Wait, who's joining the UN?
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  13. RickDeckard

    RickDeckard Socialist

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    Everyone involved shouldn't agree. There should be some interest on the part of other powers to keep the peace by not doing things like this.
  14. tafkats

    tafkats scream not working because space make deaf Moderator

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    I didn't realize NATO membership came with a shipment of free nukes.
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  15. tafkats

    tafkats scream not working because space make deaf Moderator

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    Nothing about a mutual defense pact is inherently contrary to keeping the peace, unless one of the members is threatened by an aggressor (in which case the peace has already been disturbed). And isn't that the point of mutual defense?

    The only way this argument works is if you're willing to define "keeping the peace" as "looking the other way anytime an aggressive dictator decides he wants some other country's land."
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  16. Steal Your Face

    Steal Your Face Anti-Federalist

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    I meant NATO, but you knew that and just wanted to be a douche.
  17. RickDeckard

    RickDeckard Socialist

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    Calling NATO a "mutual defense pact" is a bad joke. It's much more than that. And clearly the package of measures that include this - already agreed by Ukraine - also contain other guarantees.
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  18. 14thDoctor

    14thDoctor Oi

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    I was obviously trying to imply a historical parallel, but a quick Google search suggests the Russians might actually be concerned about that exact thing.

    https://www.reuters.com/world/nato-rejects-russian-accusations-missile-deployment-2021-12-14/
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  19. Bailey

    Bailey It's always Christmas Eve Super Moderator

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    Not really I didn't, because it's very confusing that you would say that one nation is free to do whatever they want while another is not purely based on its proximity to you.
  20. Tuckerfan

    Tuckerfan BMF

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    Got the following FB message from a Swede I've known for about 20 years now.
    :corn:
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  21. Steal Your Face

    Steal Your Face Anti-Federalist

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    Remember the Afghanistan thread when I said we should start looking for warning signs that the moneyed interests in DC. are going to use bullshit excuses to take us back to Afghanistan? They must have shifted their target, now it's Ukraine and I guarantee there's going be some excuse for us to put boots on the ground there. Watch the MSM will start backing up whatever excuse they come up with just like they did with Iraq and Afghanistan. The military industrial complex won't let us stay at peace.
    http://wordforge.net/index.php?posts/3334604/
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  22. Tuckerfan

    Tuckerfan BMF

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    An open war with the US and Russia is pretty much a non-starter (though Ukraine could turn into Central America 2: Reagan's Boogaloo). As an autocrat, Putin can't afford to back down from a major confrontation with the US, unless he wants to end up like Nicolae Ceaușescu, which he doesn't so he'll fling nukes if he thinks that he's going to lose. One presumes that the people with money know this.
  23. Quincunx

    Quincunx anti-anti Staff Member Administrator

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    Kremlin-funded RT presenter claims Ukraine is Russian land that Russia will ‘take back’ by force

    Anton Krasovsky, director of broadcasting for the Russian state-funded RT channel, has used his chat show to assure Ukrainians, whom he calls ‘animals’, that Russia will invade on any sign that Ukraine is near joining NATO. While Krasovsky’s blustering about Ukraine being “our Russian land” is, on the whole, spoken with his customary smirk, it comes amid an escalation in warmongering hysteria in the Russian state media reminiscent of the propaganda in 2014. Ukraine has been accused of planning “the extermination of the civilian population” in Donbas,, while Russia claimed to have “600 thousand moral reasons to announce an operation on forcing peace on Kyiv” (with this being the number of Ukrainians whom Russia has illegally provided with Russian citizenship.)
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  24. Steal Your Face

    Steal Your Face Anti-Federalist

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    All out war with Russia, probably not, but some sort of proxy war I could totally see.
  25. Quincunx

    Quincunx anti-anti Staff Member Administrator

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    https://www.state.gov/russias-top-five-persistent-disinformation-narratives/

    Russia’s Top Five Persistent Disinformation Narratives


    Over many years, Russia has fabricated a set of false narratives that its disinformation and propaganda ecosystem persistently injects into the global information environment. These narratives act like a template, which enables the Kremlin to adjust these narratives, with one consistency – a complete disregard for truth as it shapes the information environment to support its policy goals.

    Russian military and intelligence entities are engaging in this activity across Russia’s disinformation and propaganda ecosystem, to include malign social media operations, the use of overt and covert online proxy media outlets, the injection of disinformation into television and radio programming, the hosting of conferences designed to influence attendees into falsely believing that Ukraine, not Russia, is at fault for heightened tensions in the region, and the leveraging of cyber operations to deface media outlets and conduct hack and release operations.

    Here are five major reoccurring Russian disinformation themes that the Kremlin is currently readjusting in an attempt to fill the information environment with false narratives about its actions in Ukraine.

    Theme #1: “Russia is an Innocent Victim”

    Russian government officials falsely portray Russia as a perpetual victim and its aggressive actions as a forced response to the alleged actions of the United States and our democratic allies and partners. To further these claims, Russia turns to one of its favorite labels to attempt to hit back: “Russophobia.” After invading Ukraine in 2014, the Russian government and state-controlled disinformation outlets began to accuse anyone who questioned Russia’s actions of being xenophobic Russophobes.

    For example, Russia claims that the international community’s negative reaction to its invasion of an independent country was simply because people feared and hated Russia. According to the chart below, Russophobia was not an issue of major concern to the Russian Foreign Ministry or state-funded disinformation outlets until the Russian military invaded Ukraine. Claims of “Russophobia” persist across a range of topics and are employed whenever the Russian government wants to play the victim, when it is actually the aggressor.

    [​IMG]
    Graph showing mentions of the words “Russophobia” and “Russophobe” by the Russian Foreign Ministry, Sputnik and RT, 2001–17. (Source: DFRLab)
    Theme #2: Historical Revisionism

    When history does not align with the Kremlin’s political objectives, Russian government officials and their proxy voices deny historical events or distort historical narratives to try to cast Russia in a more favorable light and serve its domestic and geopolitical agenda. For example, the 1939 non-aggression pact between the Soviet Union and Nazi Germany, also known as the Molotov-Ribbentrop Pact, which helped precipitate World War II, is politically inconvenient for the Putin regime. In 2020, in an attempt to minimize and rationalize Stalin’s decision to align himself with Hitler, Putin published a twisted version of the start of World War II, downplaying the Soviet role and shifting blame for the war to other countries. Russia often takes this a step further by labeling those who disagree with its twisted version of history as Nazis or Nazi sympathizers.

    The Kremlin also applies this formula to the history of Ukraine’s statehood, NATO’s conduct during the collapse of the Soviet Union, its GULAG prison system, the famine in Ukraine known as Holodomor, and many other events where the Kremlin’s historical actions do not serve its current political goals.

    Theme #3: “The Collapse of Western Civilization is Imminent”

    Russia pushes the false claim that Western civilization is collapsing and has strayed from “traditional values” because it works to ensure the safety and equality of LGBTQI+ people and promotes concepts such as female equality and multiculturalism. The demise of Western civilization is one of Russia’s oldest disinformation tropes, with claims of “the decaying west” documented since the 19th century.

    This “values”-based disinformation narrative evokes ill-defined concepts including “tradition,” “family values,” and “spirituality.” Russia argues it is the bastion of so-called “traditional values” and gender roles and serves as a moral counterweight to the “decadence” of the United States and Western countries. For example, President Putin has claimed the West has practically cancelled the concepts of “mother” and “father,” and instead has replaced them with “parent 1 and 2,” while Foreign Minister Lavrov wrote that Western students “learn at school that Jesus Christ was bisexual.”

    Theme #4: “Popular Movements are U.S.-sponsored ‘Color Revolutions’”

    The Kremlin has difficulty accepting that all individuals should have the human right to freedom of expression, and that the government should be accountable to its people. Russia has accused the United States of either instigating uprisings or plotting “color revolutions” in Georgia, Kazakhstan, the Kyrgyz Republic, Moldova, Ukraine, and throughout the Middle East and Africa. If a popular movement is pro-democracy and pro-reform and not deemed to be in Russia’s geopolitical interests, the Kremlin will often attack its legitimacy and claim that the United States is secretly behind it. These baseless accusations often target local and international civil society organizations, as well as independent media that expose human rights abuses and corruption. The Kremlin seeks to deny that people in neighboring countries could have agency, dignity, and independent aspirations to advocate for themselves, just as it denies these qualities to the people of Russia.

    Theme #5: Reality is Whatever the Kremlin Wants It to Be

    The Kremlin frequently tries to create multiple false realities and insert confusions into the information environment when the truth is not in its interests. Often intentionally confusing, Russian officials make arguments designed to try to shift the blame away from the Russian government’s role, even if some of the narratives contradict one another. However, in time, presenting multiple conflicting narratives can itself become a technique intended to generate confusion and discourage response. Other elements in Russia’s disinformation and propaganda ecosystem, such as the abuse of state-funded disinformation outlets and weaponized social media, help push multiple false narratives.

    It was clear to the world, for example, that Russia attempted to assassinate former Russian military intelligence officer Sergei Skripal and his daughter Yulia with the nerve agent Novichok in Salisbury, England, on March 4, 2018. In the four weeks following that incident, Russian state-funded and directed outlets RT and Sputnik disseminated 138 separate and contradictory narratives via 735 articles, according to the Policy Institute at King’s College London.

    Russia has used the same technique of flooding the information space with many false claims following other events, such as the downing of Malaysian Airlines Flight 17, and Russia’s 2008 invasion and ongoing occupation of Georgia, to distract conversations from their role in the events. Again, the purpose is to confuse and distract others and manipulate the truth to suit Kremlin interests.
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  26. 14thDoctor

    14thDoctor Oi

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    Correctly or not, Russia sees NATO as a threat, and the spectre of NATO expanding into countries that directly border Russia as even more of a threat. America has a history of deploying nuclear weapons in NATO countries. Hypothetically, allowing the Ukraine to join NATO creates a situation where American nuclear weapons could be positioned directly across the border from Russia, so close that Russia would have no way of intercepting a nuclear strike launched from that position.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nuclear_sharing#NATO

    Don't tell me America wouldn't object to Canada or Mexico joining an alliance that might allow Russia to deploy nuclear weapons directly across the border from the United States, so close that America would have no way of intercepting a nuclear strike launched from those countries. :shrug:
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  27. mburtonk

    mburtonk mburtonkulous

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    Would we invade Canada or Mexico though?
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  28. Quincunx

    Quincunx anti-anti Staff Member Administrator

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    The current crisis has not been precipitated by NATO expansion. Russia initiated it by manipulating Ukrainian domestic politics, illegally occupying Ukrainian territory, and arming pro-Russian separatists. If Russia ceased its aggression, Ukraine would have no reason to want to join NATO. I don't see Canada or Mexico clamoring to enter an alliance with Russia.
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  29. mburtonk

    mburtonk mburtonkulous

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    I know it's in bad faith, but isn't Russia arguing that Ukraine has effectively joined NATO because they are receiving support from NATO?
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  30. mburtonk

    mburtonk mburtonkulous

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    But what if? WHAT IF