The implosion of the Democratic Party thread

Joe Manchin disagrees.

Because a right-wing Dem won't try to end democracy.

That's why Elizabeth Warren is the senator from West Virginia, right? Geography matters. Democrats' unwillingness to acknowledge this in the face of a fascist takeover is nothing short of national suicide.

Which policies popular in the modern Democratic party do you think are more left than the historic norms and should be rolled back?

Even Trump didn't try to have Biden thrown in prison. I don't know that'll be the case in the 2028 elections.

If that's the case, then the Democrats need to join the Republican party en masse. If R voters are actually too stupid to vote on policy, they're too stupid to vote on history. But I don't think either of us believe that's actually the case.

craven dems wanted a republican like Biden so that republicans would abandon trump and not call them socialists or communists. How did that work out? Trump got more votes than when he ran against hillary. Biden is called a socialist and communist. They say he is destroying the country with progressive ideas. There is nothing about Biden that is progressive or left. He is a hard core corporate republican.

Keep on telling us how we have to accept right wing fascism in order to beat right wing fascism. You have crossed the line and UA is going to start hugging you pretty soon.

I stopped voting for the right wing shit, and I am happy about it. America is full of right wing morons, and this is why democracy is complete fail for the benefit of the human race. I do not have to vote for your right wing heroes because you threaten me with the collapse of the democrat party. Fuck them and let them fall. Maybe then we can get people to accept a real liberal progressive party.

That is because he tried to have hillary thrown in prison. You do remember "lock her up" was his favorite chant. The only reason hillary is not in prison is because he could not find a crime.

He ran that way, but largely hasn't governed that way. What he is is limited in his ability to get legislation passed.

No, Dems ought to accept center-right democracy in order to beat -- and then legislatively, and hopefully constitutionally, cripple -- right-wing fascism. Which means either de-nationalizing the party so that they can actually run conservative Democrats in conservative states -- but then you have to get the voters to believe the conservative Dems won't just vote on the party line -- or the whole party has to take a right turn. I think the former is healthier for the country if it could be pulled off, but considerably harder to actually pull off.

So the only thing stopping fascism right now is the Democratic party's narrow legislative majority... but if that collapses, and fascism rules unchecked, the fascists will happily let everyone vote for a liberal progressive party to take away fascism? See, you don't believe it either, that fascism is actually coming.

Does anyone really believe this country is turning towards despotism on the left or the right or is this all a bunch of nonsense rhetoric? I personally don’t think it’s happening, but I can easily see how it could happen. People on the left seem to think that extreme leftism doesn’t also result in despotism. Just my thoughts.

Your problem is you don't understand how far left some people's positions actually are or aren't; you just treat everything left-of-center as extreme left. AOC is not the extreme left. Elizabeth Warren is not the extreme left. Bernie Sanders is not the extreme left (though he used to be considerably further left before entering national politics). There are no extreme leftists in Congress or in the DNC at the national level. Not a one of them even approaches a Hugo Chavez or Fidel Castro. The same cannot be said for the far right. There are several actively fascist senators (and 40-ish more willing to overlook that as long as it gets them power), most notably Hawley and Cotton. I don't know offhand how many there are in the House, but certainly the Gosar-Ghomert-Gaetz crowd are among them (Greene and Boebert are maybes, and Cawthorn is definitely too stupid to be a useful one, though I'm sure he likes the idea). The right-wing media is all about fascism in all but name (and in Steve Bannon's case, in name too, although he sees it as a transitional state to anarcho-communism following civil war). NPR never hurt anyone. There is some extreme leftist media, but they have approximately zero influence on elected officials, unlike right-wing media, which has a cozy relationship with the Republican Party.

Real threat >>> technically possible but almost entirely hypothetical danger

So wait, @Uncle Albert, which cities were destroyed? I'm trying to plan a vacation and I need to know which cities have been wiped off the map.

The Green New Deal where AOC wants eliminate air travel, you don’t think that’s extreme left? Some of the things that people like Dicky or 14th doctor want to normalize? The shit that @Shirogayne or @Nova propose? Really? You want a clear example of what I’m talking about? Okay. I hate to be the, “watch this video “ guy, but seriously, watch this video. It’s Dan Chrenshaw proposing reasonable action to combat climate change, yet some in Congress are shifting all over it. Hell, @steve2^4 is basically saying we can’t even think about nuclear. At least Trever Noah is willing to have him on and if TDS was always like that, I’d watch it religiously like I used to.

If you want anyone to take the rest of your post seriously, you shouldn't start with an easily disproved Republican lie. Jesus, take 30 seconds to Google such outlandish claims before you post them.

Seriously, stop listening to Republican talk radio.

So you want to go more right because getting more fascist would be fun?

I am missing something with the logic here. These ideas of placating the abusers so maybe they will come over to your side seem a lot like the mentality of an abused individual who is trying to get their abuser on their side. Maybe if I do what the bully says he will let me be who I want to be. Ask the GLBT community how well it worked when they tried to be more straight to appease the right.

All you are doing is making excuses for being right wing abusers.

"If only I'd gotten the casserole piping hot and ready on the table on time! Next time, I'll try even harder! He'll love me if I cook better! ".

A. As if the better ones have a red carpet out for American refugees. (they don't)
B. As if I could afford a plane ticket to goddam NYC, let alone out of the country, or to walk away from my family or take them with me against their will to leave this place and various other logistical road blocks. I have always found it cute that those with the means and liberty to just decide to fuck off somewhere else assume that anyone else does too.

Actually, not so much.

As for "arming up" ... lol. Or I could just get a t-shirt that says "shoot ME first" (as if that isn't already on the checklist)... I'm overwhelmingly aware of the unlikelihood that I'd prevail in anything more violent than arm-wrestling.

The "descent into fascism" such as it might be, in my view, is presaged by the effective disintegration of civil order and any legitimate government at all in much of the country. Think, for example, Syria. Large swaths will exist under right wing fascism with whatever official and unofficial violence necessary to suppress resistance (not unlike Jim Crow in a lot of ways) and the typically more prosperous areas that lean blue will have to constantly be wary about the wanna-be fascists who remain in their midst "behind enemy lines"...and this can't resolve until the older anti-democratic Americans age out of power and influence and we eventually concede that the current constitution is not sufficient to solve the problem. Basically, start over.

And I' on the wrong side of that divide ...fuck all I can do about it.

No, I want the Democrats to go right to steal the fascists’ and fascist-enablers’ voters who aren’t necessarily fascist themselves, fix the democratic underpinnings and codify norms that they can’t now, and then swing back left.

Not placating the abusers, placating the abusers’ voters, so the abusers lose power.

Nah, I just don’t think every Republican voter is an abuser, nor that the left can win under the current system. So the democratic right needs to shut down the fascist right. The democratic right almost doesn’t exist (pretty much only the ones who voted to impeach). It needs to. And nothing the left does will make that happen.

No, that’s a lie. That you’re willing to believe it is further testament to the deleterious effects of conservative talk radio.

Wait, which of them are in Congress or the DNC? Fuck, we have so much more lobbying power than I knew about! Is it 14thDoctor? I knew he wasn’t actually Canadian!

That some Congressional and national Republicans happen to be right about some possible climate change solutions doesn’t mean they aren’t almost exclusively comprised of fascists and those willing to enable them. Nor does it, nor the Democrats’ being wrong on those or other policies, have any bearing on the extreme leftism, or lack thereof, among Democrats in equivalent positions.

“Democrats are wrong about nuclear power’s role in solving climate change, so I’m fine electing people who will end democracy in America” is definitely one of the worse defenses of voting Republican I’ve ever heard. Far from the worst, but definitely down there. There’s a silver lining that if the Republicans do go all-in on nuclear to own the libs on the way to fascism, it might actually save the planet (for non-Americans), if we don’t die in a nuclear war first. Whereas the people who don’t like that people far richer than themselves might pay more in income taxes… that might be the worst.

I love me some nuclear.

But it's not cost effective or quick enough to bring new plants online to help.

Existing plants should be incentivized to upgrade and renew their licenses.

Meanwhile we have this fusion reactor in the sky that rains energy on us.

I think you’re being hyperbolic with the idea that we’re on a fast march towards fascism.

Says the guy with "Heil Fauci! Heil Fauci! Heil Fauci! Heil Fauci!" in his signature.

It’s a joke, but you do bring up a good point. Covid is a perfect example of how people will allow their freedom to be jeopardized all in the name of the collective. I’m sure the CIA and governments around the world are taking notes on how to control the population without stirring up too much shit. All you have to do is shame, bully and gaslight people into thinking they didn’t do their part in helping society combat the pandemic.

But pointing out things Republicans are saying and doing in 2021 is hyperbolic.

Yeah, the government did this for swine flu in 1918, and we became a dictatorship, and we still are.
Oh, wait...

No, anti-vaxxers said all the same stupid horseshit you are right now.
Except they were better at dying.

No gaslighting involved - they didn't. And these folk obviously have no shame because otherwise THEY'D HAVE FUCKING DONE IT.

This a thousand times.
No, 700 thousand times.

So because something didn’t happen in the past, that means it can’t happen in the future?

Isn't the libertarian motto "my rights end where others' begin"? Why does your freedom to not have to wear a mask, limit contact with others, and get a vaccine during the middle of a global pandemic outweigh the freedom of other people to not get sick and die? How is that fascism, and not the very ideal of libertarianism?

I think that you don't understand what fascism is.

Fuckos who claim to support capitalism and apparently don’t have a problem with No Shoes-No Shirt-No Service flip their shit when “No Mask” is added to the phrase.

Pussy bitches.