Trans activists failing to persuade people on the sports issue

LOL. How many is half of ten, Anc? I'll wait to see if you can do the math. Funny how self-righteousness always turns off the brain.

And yes, I know there are 12 now, but two of those teams just joined in 2022. You knew that, right?

And hey, I actually did know about the issues that led to the Yates report. How about that!

See, the thing is - half of the coaches in the league were already fired. And the commissioner resigned. And a respected former US Attorney was commissioned to investigate if there were any further problems.

Does this sound like a case where things were being handled appropriately or one where additional visibility was needed?

I would say getting rid of half of the league's head coaches, its commisioner, and conducting a massive review falls in the former, not the latter category, but that's just me.

If someone was arguing here that nothing should have be done I'd be actively debating them in their misogyny. No one is doing that, are they?

You really shouldn't ever mock the WHATABOUT argument again.

You'd be a massive hypocrite for that now, wouldn't you?

Don't worry, next time you do that I'll be sure to remind you.

@Demiurge has based his whole argument on somethingf he says cannot be proven and is entirely based on his fee fees. He has claimed that the proof is not yet available, so if we take his statements as reality despite him clearly not reading any studies, his entire point boils down to banning trans kids from sports based on a reason that has no proof.

He admits his entire point has no facts. This is the same argument that the election was stolen. Is it stolen? Trumpistas think so despite havi9ng no proof, but they think so and it has to be so.

Dummiurge has been shown time and again there is nothing unbfair about trans girl competing in sports, and that real numbers and stats show there is no overwhelming winning by trans girls, but her thinks it is true, and there just is not data that yet backs up his prejudice.

Dummiurge is a complete liar and if he wants to make a point that there is an advantage then he needs to prove it with science. Lack opf data supporting your point does not mean the studies have not been done, nor that there is imaginary data yet to be released.

He cannot prove his point because there simply is no proof, and every study has contradicted his point.

And yet… you didn’t know anything about this report.

One that didn’t just focus on abuse in the NWSL but went all the way from the USWNT to Youth Soccer, even though you are so concerned with woman’s sports (of which WoSo is the 2nd most played in the US).

Odd.

Because you care so much about protecting women athletes.

"you reiterating your strawman makes me less likely to trust your POV on this,"

Not really sure how pointing out shit that is actually fucking happening is a straw man.
It's not YOUR motives I'm questioning. I'm speaking of and to the socio-political world we have to live in. And to be very blunt, the idea that a tiny handful of cis women might lose a goddamn footrace they might otherwise have won is supposed to be a top-of-the-list priority while these Theofacists are out here attacking us on all fronts for EXISTING is not a premise I'm willing to entertain.

I'd really like the "fairness" to be able to go to the goddamned doctor for what I need same as everyone else before we get to sweating the fairness of a swim meet.

He knows the reports existed, but he does not read them and relies on other people to tell him what is inside opf them. This is the same sort of ignorant twattery that has christians claiming the bible says things it doesn't, and also not knowing the horrible things it does say. This is because they do not read these things for themselves.

The entire reason for this is their feelings. Dummiurge hates trans people, and sexualizes females. He wants the science to back him. So jhe ignores it, and then has other chuds lie top him about what actual science says, and cherry pick data points that contradict what science actually says. He gets pissy when he reads facts and they do not say what he wants, so he stops reading facts and relies on liars who use academic credentials to justify their lies. There really has to be some accountability for educational institutions allowing grifters to use their degrees to validate their grift. If a doctor lies in court and is proven to lie to a patient they can lose their license to practice medicine and face fines and criminal prosecution. If Jordan Peterson uses his degree to pretend he is an authority on something no one strips him of his degree for obviously lying and having no grasp of the subject matter. If we removed the acreditation of educational institutions for allowing their PhDs and other graduates to spread lies and incorrect statements as facts because they gopt a degree while showing no evidence, then maybe they might pull some of the PhDs of the lying scientists who make profit off of spreading lies under the authority of a degree from a school and nothing else.

Look at so called Dr. Oz. Should he be a doctor after all the claims of fitness that he has made based on his medical degree? In court under penal;ty of perjury he had to claim his health supplements had no weight loss benefit despite clearly using his medical degree to say they would work. He is still a fucking doctor. This is the sort of idiot dummiurge is relying upon to give him valid information about trans studies he is unwilling to read himself. It is the same scenario as climate change. These people will believe in a debunked guy who has a science degree, but violates every bit of the rules of science to lie for profit to protect people's feelings. Then they are going to apply medicical rules, hate laws, and torture children and adults based on these lies. They actually are using these charlotans to deny women healthcare to save their lives because they want to make their uteruses rot out of their bodies because Birth Control makes them sad because a fictional book written to hate women 2000+ years ago. TYhe Torah is one of the most anti-female books ever, and it inspired two spin offs of anti-female religions in christianity and Islam.

Dummiurge is using these same people as his appeal to authority when there is actual science and records that show trans girls and women are not dominating female sports when they have undergone time with testosterone blockers. The whole logic they use is that if a champion takes testosterone they might get an advantage that will up their stats as per PEDs. However, PEDs never ensure victory. If you are not at the top PEDs are not going to win for you. In Bowling, a sport where physically throwing a heavier ball quicker and with more control, there are women who can easily compete with 99 percent of men. My father, who can toss a 300, has regularly had a lower average than the women in his leagues. The men above him who regularly can toss an 800 series have competition from the women on non-handicapped averages. That is a sport where arm strength, endurance, and ball speed have a very real correlation with your highest games because it increases your strike percentage. You simply cannot get over the 220's with an accurate spare ball because of math.

No, the trans community has to eat shit sandwiches for a couple more decades until Demi feels comfortable.
And you have to take that wait with a smile, because you're heroically taking one for the team.
If you don't grin and bear it heroically, you're a bad person.
Don't you want to be a good person?
Where's my smile? Where's my smile? There's a good little girl!
This position isn't evil, because Demi isn't twirling his mustache.
Everyone knows evil only comes delivered with a scowl.
It's benign and lovely, because he's just hitting the snooze alarm laying back on his big poofy fluff mattress of privilege.
Lovely, lovely, lovely.
Whee!

This is part of why I'm so passionate about this - honestly I don't give that many fucks about who wins some sports thing, I'm passionate about it because it is a pre-fab, made-up, astro-turf wedge issue designed my reactionary right theofascists to appeal to the sympathy of undecided folks and pull them into their camp. Which is why the same people who bitch about the "fairness" issue also go to the legislature and demand that the one perfect solution to that problem - puberty-blockers - ALSO be banned; it's why those laws about "fair sports" include first-fucking graders; It's why none of them said a goddamned mumbling word about trans athletes until they utterly faceplanted on the effort to use restrooms as an emotional wedge issue...

Even IF there's a theoretical possibility that a TINY number of athletic events might be skewed - that's NOT a problem they give a single fuck about and I'm out here fighting the ACTUAL battle not the one they want me to fight.

Indeed, pretty much all mainstream trans people with any sort of public voice (see, for example Parker Molloy) are perfectly happy to say that if this BECOMES a problem, it may well be necessary to take objectively reasonable measure to regulate the situation. And it's not an argument against research, I'm sure that a lot of good faith research is going on. But that's a whole parallel universe to the political bullshit.

The researchers? No, I don't either - but THEY are not the ones who have declared war on us.

The thing about this is that being IN the competition and ON the team ALSO imbues "real, tangible benefits" to EVERY athlete, not just the one who wins. So the position of the anti-trans folks, even at the most generous, is that the benefits that would attain to trans-girl athletes are less worthy of affirmation and protection than the competitive victories that a microscopic number of cis-girls might miss out on.

And let's be real, there's no example - nor is there likely to be - of a cis girl who missed out on, say, a college scholarship because they lost some portion of her matches to a trans girl. The recruiters will always look at context (that factor among others). See for example the girl that ADF is using as a prop in New England.

The two trans girls they are suing over are - not even IN college let alone on a track team - the girls who are suing them (supposedly, really they are props) ARE both college athletes today. Despite the lead plaintiff having finished EIGHTH in the race that she cites as having damaged her career.

Again, I'm not disputing the potential for a legitimate concern demanding more research into the POTENTIAL that future regulation might be necessary or that your concern for this is in good faith.

But the fact that it's an ISSUE which is running through red state legislatures right now has exactly nothing to do with that good faith concern. It's being used as a tool to open the floor for discussion about what OTHER things trans people might need to be regulated on.

Hell FRC published an entire White Paper on their website a few years back outlining specifically all the ways they intend to legislate us out of public life and low-and-behold, those same goals keep turning up on the legislative agendas. This was one of them.

same with me and the theofascism

Some reactions I found worth sharing
(including my own)



And that is MUCH worse in the UK, FYI





The "other JS" here being Jesse Singal (one among many of the type)

Julia always has a view of the heart of the matter

While we're on this tangent, Michael Hobbes has ANOTHER brilliant deconstruction on of ANOTHER major-media puff piece about the astro-turf moral panic over minors transitioning (stage two after they had so much success with the athletics bullshit)

Hobbes does this a lot and it's needed:

and if anyone thinks this is off-topic to the subject of the thread, it's really not - it's what has come next, and there's a great deal more to come if they aren't stopped now.

Need I point out what the first books folks in a certain European nation thought should be burned were? It doesn't fucking matter about how well trans athletes do in competition, that's not the end game. The end game is the subjugation of humanity to people who have a twisted belief system. If you can't see that, then you're enabling those who wish it to come to pass.

We will notice that the republican white nationalist have gone back to the initial targets of white supremacists. They target the smaller communities that are more universally disliked first, while simmering things like anti-semitism for the future. It is coming here in america, but anti-semitism, racism, and anti-brown people hate is being hushed because they are trying to find a weaker "evil" under an evangelical majority to fight against. Once they gain power, like they did with Trump, all of a sudden we see them carrying tiki torches and chanting the jews will not replace us, along with demonizing the other minorities also. The GLBT community is a convenient enemy that unites religious people across the board. TRhis is where you get tokens like Rubio, Kanye, Diamond and silk, the cuban community, and all sortsd of other christians to back the right on installing hitler into power by voting for Trump who will remove democracy and then install white supremacist power structure into leadership while running out anyone who opposes them.

Then it is fair game on everyone else. Dummiurge is a useful idiot in this fight because he is so worried about fairness of women's sports so he will vote for the white nationalists over the "woke" people. It will be way too late when his people come into power, and it won't matter much because he is not one of the others anyway. He will just STFU and hide pretending he knows nothing of concentration camps and violence towards others like most of Nazi Germany.

The only difference this time is much more exposure and less ability to be secret about the brown shirt (dummiurge's friends) activities. It is not that I think Dummiurge is a Nazi, but that I know he is a complicit useful idiot that would benefit from less competition and the subjugation of the women he loves to jerk off to. It causes complicit behavior in weak white males and karens.

I at least knew the number of teams in the league - which you didn't know. LOL. But sure, this was BIG NEWS in your section of the world. You know, the one that follows Women's Sports. But doesn't even know the teams. Huh. LOL.

And my POV protects the existence of Women's Sports. Whereas we've had multiple people in this thread that say it shouldn't even exist, because they believe these lies that there is no difference.

Not a peep from you about that Anc. So maybe this isn't about sports at all to you, but instead your idea of dogmatic purity.

You know, for those half of the coaches that were fired, not the five or six.

If you had any self-respect on this topic, you'd be embarrassed.

BTW, I'm sure there's quite a few articles about any number of topics of interest to either of us that we both haven't read yet.

Trying to claim that's a gotcha is sophmoric.

Two different issues. This is a discussion board. Long threads are about things that we disagree on. When we agree, there isn't much discussion, is there? Yes, you have every right to live your life as you choose. Never said otherwise.

But here we go again -if I disagree with your POV on anything it means I'm against you in everything. So here comes the strawman again. If you need to argue with someone about your right to see a doctor it's not going to be with me, is it?

Enough. Go back and look at my posts. How many fucking times did I say that puberty blockers are fine and that they would help alleviate this question entirely? Do you think that means I'm for, or against, people receiving care?

But if I disagree with anything, in this case women should have a safe space and we need to find the right balance between inclusion and protecting that safe space, it means you have to argue with me like I'm a theofascist.

Which is also something I've repeatedly stated I'm not, have repeatedly argued against in dozens of other threads, and have certainly proved my bonafides over the decades here.

You are arguing politics with someone who is not actually present. That's on you.

From what? Macho Man Randy Savage as a fake transwoman?
That's not a thing.

Male rapists in bathrooms as fake transwomen?
That's not a thing.

Those come from South Park and JK Rowling respectively.

In most competitive sports there is a limited number of spots. It's a zero sum game. So for every slot a transwoman takes you take away one from a woman. Why is it that the trans community deserves those spots more? And yes, at the highest levels there is real monetary compensation involved, it's not just 'she could have just gone and played rec league soccer' which also has similar quality of life advantages. Non-competitive sports are available at every single one of these colleges, and are also beneficial

The total value last year of athletic scholarships handed out was ~$4 billion.

Again, this isn't saying no transathletes should be allowed to compete. But because by definition anyone who is medically transitioning is taking hormone therapy it needs to be regulated so it's fair to everyone involved.

If doctors started giving transmen excessive amounts of steroids, it would need to be regulated as well.

LOL, bullshit. That's like saying white athletes will always be advantaged because of context, there's no chance that that black boy will get the scholarship. I'm sure a lot of people thought that - in the 40s and 50s. Of course that will change over time. Competitive sports are just that, competitive, and winning is incredibly important. The coach that recruits the best players will win. Hell, they cheat at little league.

Also underscores this fiction that women are excluded from male sports exclusively because of innate sexism. If a coach could win a few more games with a woman goalie or wide receiver, they will. Maybe not in all places, but it will happen just like integration into college football happened. USC started fielding black athletes, they were excoriated by the racist, stupid, backwards South, until they came down to Alabama and absolutely crushed Bear Bryant's defending national champion white only team. Next year Bear Bryant started recruiting black ball players, and actually playing them, and then that spread like wildfire.

Good.

And again, I'm not voting for these asshats, not giving them campaign donations, and if someone is here saying that the Bible says X or Y I'd tell them to fuck the right off.

I've stated so over and over again, yet the topic keeps coming up.

I am talking about real issues happening now and how we should make sure we address them through reason and compassion, but that compassion is also for female athletes.

From people with multiple times the testosterone of the other competitors when the competition was explicitly created for people with by definition less testosterone.

And you are objectively wrong, there are cases of rapes happening by people who at least claim to be gender fluid or trans. Happened a couple counties over from me, impacted the elections in my state unfortunately. Rape incidents in one study in Britain showed that transwomen were 3-4 more likely to rape when put in general population women's prisons.

Because 'transpeople will never do X' is absolute horseshit, and once again one of these ridiculous assertions from the far left that you should just laugh at, like 'believe the women' or 'all cops are bad.' Maybe it's a truism in terms of generalizaiton, but it's not an absolute as it's so often portrayed. Nope, there's always exceptions.

Not in this case due to the trans part, but due to the people part. There always will be people who suck.

The fact trans people can't be rapists is itself absurd. You don't need functioning genitalia to rape, and after all as we should all know by now rape isn't about sex, it's about power.

And now of course there will be wailing and gnashing of teeth, as if I said 'trans people are rapists' as opposed to 'trans people can be rapists' and it's political disadvantageous to promote the lie that they can't be.

The question as we as a society adapt to these things is are the social benefits better or worse. In most cases they are indeed better.

But that doesn't make the parents of the two girls who got attacked in the women's bathroom in Loudoun better about their daughters' sexual assaults, does it?

Or the fact that the school district tried to cover it up because they didn't want the truth to come out because it would impact parent's acceptance of their policies.

These questions are almost never absolutes, but instead targeting things so that we help the most people while doing the least harm.

I have said, REPEATEDLY, that I do not question YOUR motives or good faith.

I'm pointing out that your good faith concerns are the necessary fuel that legitimizes THEIR bad faith bigotry in action.

It's literally the whole point of them suddenly, out of nowhere, in the last couple of years, taking this thing no one was talking about before and making it a "the end of women's sports forever" crisis.

In EXACTLY the same way that trans people have been using public sex-segregated restrooms without issue basically ever since they have existed, but as soon as they saw they were going to lose on gay marriage it sprange into existance, fully formed, as a crucial issue and a threat to the safety of women and children everywhere.

Which of course it wasn't.

What you did, in all good faith, was take the bait. Without good faith concern from "objective third parties" this "issue" disintegrates just as the anti-SSM rhetoric did. You are arguing with good will but that doesn't mean you haven't been co-opted.

Interesting. What made you think that and what does it have to do with the thing you quoted?

Of course they CAN - so can cis-women. Irrelevant. We do not restrict the rights of all ministers despite rampant sexual behavior among ministers. That's not how it works.

Except for trans people apparently.

If you are speaking of the case that I'm aware of, it has nothing to do with trans people. The attacker has never professed to be trans, didn't gain access through a trans-accepting policy (which was not yet in place) and had in fact a pre-existing relationship with at least one of the victims who attacked her after she chose to deny him after she had allowed his entrance.

Right wing reactionaries created the whole "behold the outcome of allowing the tranzies" narrative out of whole cloth, as is their way.

There is one case that I know of in which an actual trans person was charged with such an assault - in Idaho.

Some time back FRC, committed anti-trans religious zealots that they are, collected a list of over 100 examples which they said proved that we dare not allow trans people in ladies rooms. I went through it item by item. When you eliminate all the irrelevant acts (literally one of them was a panty raid in England) those that are alleged elsewhere in the world, their inclusions of people in prison who are there for non-sexual crimes and now claim to be trans, and so forth there were - from 2007-2019 a total of nine cases that KINDA fit the narrative of trans acceptance increasing danger. None were trans or professed to be, all were cis males wearing at least some item of female clothing (one dude was a grown man wearing girls panties over his male pants) who at some point went into a ladies' room (in another case a perv was flashing on the sales floor at Walmart and when pursued he tried to escape into the ladies' room) - so I'm being generous in giving them these nine.

Nine. In 12 years. From a group highly motivated to find every case.

Red Room rules aside, lets indulge a little math. If we assume every female in American averages one visit to a public sex segregated multi-user restroom per week, that's almost NINE BILLION restroom visits a year. And these fuckers couldn't even find an average ONE IN NINE BILLION rate of these dangerous offenses. Meanwhile trans women living their life using the proper restroom almost entirely unnoticed with no assaults - save that one in Iowa (which happened after the list was compiled) - in short:

THERE IS NO INCREASED RISK. ANECDOTAL EVIDENCE PROVES NOTHING.

The "it's dangerous (immoral, unethical, whatever) to allow trans people to..." anything is the EXACT SAME mentality that segregationists had when they said it was dangerous (immoral, unethical, whatever) to allow black people to...

Did we end segregation by "considering their legitimate concerns"?

No. It only ended when the government said "we're not doing the fucking segregation shit anymore, get used to it."

and the vast majority of folks - got used to it.

Yet here we are, 50 years later, trying to respect the hatefulness of bigots while traumatizing innocent people who already have enough shit on our plates to deal with (I can provide exhaustive detail) because the bigots happen to wholly own the direction of one major political party despite being less than a third of the overall population.

And if some trans folks end up eating a bullet* along the way, well, that's just the cost of doing politics right?


*Look up the story of the teacher in the UK who was harassed for years after she came out as trans on the job who eventually killed herself from all the abuse. Not many such events are so high profile, but they are not uncommon. And We in this country are following that same path.

No, Nova, it doesn't, because at the end of the day there is a biological difference. That's the core of this issue. Transwomen are women. In terms of gender social contract and mentality, sure. That's what their mind and body tells them, and they should absolutely be free in expressing that. In terms of biology, no, they aren't. And until the medical process can be followed to get their sense of identity and biology to match as close as possible there is a real need to regulate issues where there are significant differences between male and female biology. Such as sports. This is one of the very few areas that exists.

But this pisses off trans activists because it acknowledges a real difference in biology that is the center of the issue. Sorry, trans senses of identity is not more important than other people's equal rights.

Equity vs equality. I believe the standard the overwhelming majority of time should be equality.

No, that is not being 'coopted' by the religious right, who absolutely do not believe that.

I honestly don't give a shit, and I'll tell you why:

Nearly every children's sporting league divides children up by birth year or some equivalent annual period, forcing kids born in the first month of each year to directly compete against kids born in the last month of each year. A kid born on December 31st of 2012 is expected to compete against a kid born on January 1st of 2012. January kids have an eleven month growth advantage on December kids, and months of additional training and practice. Then of course if you're performing better than your peers when you're just starting out, you receive more attention from coaches and even more training and practice opportunities, and things snowball from there. In the NHL more players were born in January than any other month, and many of the all-time greats were born in January.

Where's the outcry demanding we regulate that kind of significant biological disparity between competitors?


And don't even get me started on Michael Phelps vs. Caster Semenya.

Sure, which is literally what I said.

The problem is some people are arguing that no, they can't, as if it were physically or mentally impossible.

That's wrong, and it's particularly bad politics, because it's so easily disproved.

So the question is, as I said, where's the dividing line, is the social good more important than the individual risk.

And I've already said I'm on the side that said yes, it is.

This was a local issue for me. The assailant admitted they were gender fluid, was wearing a skirt at the time of the attack, and had been using the girls bathroom previously. The pre-existing relationship has nothing to do with whether it was rape or not.

And the issue came from the school board lying about the attack even taking place in a meeting, where the girl's father became distraught over the lie invalidating his daughter's rape, and was arrested.

The school board had created a policy that allowed individuals like that assailant to use the bathroom of their choice as of the time of that meeting, and the victim's father was upset that they did so after the attack happened, then doubled down by saying that no such attack had happened.

Needless to say, that series of events, especially the school board's lying about the fact the attack existed, became a flashpoint.

Saying none of this had anything to do with the school board expanding these policies is a huge distortion. The father was there specifically to protest these policies because his daughter had been attacked by someone who identified within the umbrella of those policies.

But that goes to the next point:

So the large majority were cis men wearing female clothing to allow them access to areas that are protected space for women. Sounds familiar.

Isn't that exactly JK Rowlings objection to some of these policies in her nation? A woman who was raped and was concerned people would use loopholes to attack women in their safe spaces? So let's not pretend that policies for inclusion of trans concerns can't have unintended consequences.

So the questions are how do you define trans so as to close anyone acting in bad faith, and perhaps that person needs to actually be under gender care to be considered within that guideline.

As that is the case in most (but not all) of these issues I'm largely for these policies, but depending how they are composed there are individual policies that IMO might need to be updated.

And in the US it's more problematic without universal healthcare. It's more feasible to impose 'needs to be under a standard of care' in countries with socialized medicine instead of our backward ass system. Transpeople shouldn't be penalized here because of the lack of that.

Yes, clearly the trajectory of the last decade in the US is how accepting we've become of our differences. But I concur, we shouldn't legitimize them when they come from a place of bigotry and hatred.

Where we differ is if there are any objections that are valid at all. Safe spaces for women who have been traumatized has some issues, and so does sports IMO. This is not the same thing as sitting at the front of the bus, being able to shop in the same stores, or voting rights.

Yes, because clearly having to wait a year during transition before one can compete in the 400 meter dash is worthy of suicide and anyone who proposes such a thing is a hateful bigot.

You are once again conflating my concerns with the theofascists.

Stating that 'it's impossible for trans people to do x or y', as was expressed in this thread, is bad politics too. Because anecodotal evidence does destroy 'it never happens.' So the issue should be phrased differently. Otherwise that does fall right into the hands of the bigots.

I certainly believe you and understand that suicide is particularly high because of harrassment. However I in no way endorse harassment, and actively vote and donate against organizations that try to normalize these policies.

I do believe that people can care about issues that don't directly impact them and that public policy on these issues should be discussed among those acting in good faith to get the best understanding and best policies in place.

Scientifically speaking, this discussion should have nothing to do with pre-pubescent children, because there is no serious difference in capability at that point in age.

After that is the issue, so by the time children are in their late teens a significant dissassociation there takes place.

But that's also the time when scholarships are decided, which leads to professional opportunities.

And of course by the time you are an adult being 21 and 2 months versus 21 and 10 months is no issue at all.

As to Phelps and Semayna, I've seen those comparisons before and I'm not sure they are valid.

Semayna has hypergonadism, indeed possessing an internal set of testes that dramatically increases her testosterone levels.

It's unfortunate for her, but in her best competition, the 400m she dominates the women but is a full 6 seconds behind the best man, which is a huge difference in that event.

Phelps hasn't been diagnosed with any disorders, has passed all of the drug tests he's taken, and scientists don't know why he produces less lactic acid.

There's no specific issue that's ever been discovered to my knowledge that would disqualify him.

Oh I don't know, the thread I created might have gave me the impression that I was being assured that kids weren't getting sex changes and/ or receiving hormone blockers at an inappropriate age.
http://wordforge.net/index.php?threads/can-kids-consent-to-hormone-blockers.121312/

glad you have those degrees in medicine and child psychology to be able to tell the rest of us what's "appropriate" scientifically speaking.

I don't need to have a medical degree to be able to determine what I think is an appropriate age for children to take hormone blockers.

Nor does society need to base things on what you think.

Thank fuck.

You also think it's ok to waste exorbitant amounts of other people's money to talk about religion in science classes. I think you need to stop making any decisions.