well that escalated quickly! Business as usual or the tip of the iceberg?

"Both sides are bad" doesn't work for you. For others who don't want to take sides but at the same time don't want to see either population destroyed, "both sides are bad" is the harsh reality/framework in which to work.

"Both sides are bad" is just intellectually, emotionally, and morally lazy. Yes, Hamas does bad shit, but Israel has an actual military, and they use their power to kill civilians because they consider all Palestinians to be enemy combatants. So to use it and say it's cruel reality is just a way to absolve the evil that Israel does because the US has done the same thing, and there are people who do not want to face that reflection.

you know Hamas gets support from ACTUAL MILITARY forces like Iran, right? They aren't all teenagers throwing rocks with slings you know.
Side note are you hoping to get noticed by "The Squad" or something? I think you'd fit right in with them.

There's a shitload of information in this thread that shows the IDF does far, far more damage to Palestinian civilians than Hamas manages against the IDF.

There's also the fact that Israeli military policy is officially as much about punishment as it is getting rid of threats.

See the way that they collectively punish entire families for the actions of some, even after they are captured and if they were working without their families knowledge/approval/involvement.

I wouldn't say largely.

There are some who point out that Hamas does lots of things on the street level that help people in their day to day lives which also gets them support (although that isn't a defense of them, just an explanation that everyone there who supports them doesn't do so because of their violence), and definitely some who think they are the good guys, but for the most part the criticism of Israel is that their approach is killing massive numbers of civilians and creating more of the conditions that make people turn to groups like Hamas in the first place.

For every Palestinian talking about wanting to kill Jews you can find Israeli civilians saying things like this and voting politicians who encourage these views:



Hamas can get fucked. Every child that Israel makes an orphan, every toddler they bury for days under rubble, every family whose homes they demolish makes Hamas stronger.

Oh, those Palestinians deserve that because of their government.

Guess who else argued the same?

Oh, BUT WHATAGBOUT!!!!!

Please, tell me where it says in the US Constitution that the purpose of the US is to destroy Islam because Christianity is the one true faith and hunt down all Arabs.

Because that's the equivalency.

Well, from the very early days there was a treaty that had the binding force equal to the Constitution on the subject. The Treaty of Tripoli, ratified in 1793.

What did it say?

Oh, right: Art. 11. As the Government of the United States of America is not, in any sense, founded on the Christian religion; as it has in itself no character of enmity against the laws, religion, or tranquility, of Mussulmen (Muslims); and as the said States never entered into any war or act of hostility against any Mahometan (Mohammedan) nation, it is declared by the parties that no pretext arising from religious opinions shall ever produce an interruption of the harmony existing between the two countries.

You did read the link to the Hamas Charter I put forward, or at the very least the parts I highlighted in my post? No?

Because not only does it say that Israel must be destroyed and the day will come when the Jews will be hunted everywhere they hide, it also says that there is no possibility of peace:

There is no solution for the Palestinian question except through Jihad. Initiatives, proposals and international conferences are all a waste of time and vain endeavors. The Palestinian people know better than to consent to having their future, rights and fate toyed with. As in said in the honourable Hadith:

"The people of Syria are Allah's lash in His land. He wreaks His vengeance through them against whomsoever He wishes among His slaves It is unthinkable that those who are double-faced among them should prosper over the faithful. They will certainly die out of grief and desperation."

So indeed, fuck Hamas.

But if you think making peace with this is also a valid answer, you are being willfully obtuse.

If Hamas cared more for its people than destroying Israel, they would have sought peace years ago - and gotten a massive influx of humanitarian aid.

They don't, as their founder's son attested to before the UN in 2017. You followed that link, right?

Fantastic. Non-violent resistance.

I'm sure that US Constitution talk is a lot of consolation to those people who were killed by US missiles and sanctions that the US didn't actually want to hurt them.

Why don't children just trying getting along with their abusive parents? Why do they keep resisting the abuse when they know they're smaller and they'll never win?

If we were dedicated to their absolute destruction like Hamas is to Israel, it's doubtful there'd be anyone left to be consoled.

But please, continue with the intellectual dishonesty that US policy is the equivalent of Hamas. I'm sure the non-thinkers on the left will absolutely swoon with your moral righteousness.

Good parallel.

Because in situations in abusive households, the kids that resist are often beaten down worse, broken, and often killed. They tend to be more likely to be suicidal - and more likely to abuse others.

So we have the Israelis and Palestinians both in this situation in the last century.

If counseling doesn't work, it takes an external force to stop it.

And again, in this case the supposed abused child started from the beginning with the goal of slitting his parents throat.

And the parent watched their three sisters beaten to death before they had the child.

Hmm, can you show me where I said that US policy is the equivalent of Hamas?

Oh, so you are admitting Hamas is a uniquely bad actor finally? Literally the only party here that has always stated openly that their goal is to kill the civilian population of their rivals?

Yes, "finally".

You are still equating Israel, which could literally annihilate the Palestinians but won't, with Hamas, who wants to annihilate Israel, but doesn't because they can't.

That's because we don't just wait for someone else to tell us what to think

Quote my posts where I say these things please.

In the current conflict Israel is killing a lot more civilians than Hamas, so yes you'd better believe they get more attention.

Which is explicitly equating the two sides as equally bad actors - in this case, Israel being the worse of the two. So which is it, are they or aren't they equivalent?

And you say Israel has a right to self-defense, but if they go after Hamas war making capabilities you say that's too much. Hamas' own people have stated they intentionally hide weapons and headquarters among civilian populations. And that explicitly to play to the western press.

The number of rocket attacks has dropped off from the blistering pace of the first few days, but they still continue.

No it's not.

Please show where I said that.

If everything Israel is doing is justified self defense, then why have you in this thread described some of their actions in the past few days as atrocities, war crimes, and said you want them to stop?

Oh, look. What a massive coincidence.

In this instance, as they 'deserve the most attention', please explain how that doesn't follow. You often say 'I didn't say that' when it seems the inevitable outcome of what you did say. How is it that if we need to highlight Israel's actions and not Palestines in this instance, you aren't stating that Israel is the one who deserves moral condemnation. That's what you highlight those actions for, no?

Because there are casualties ongoing from Israel's attempts to destroy Hamas ability to launch rockets into Israel, and that needs to stop.

Justified self-defense. Hmmm, not sure I'd go that far in the legal term, and as we've seen in this thread some people don't believe the action of states can be defined in the same way as individuals.

In terms of polities, I do believe Israel is acting to eliminate an ongoing threat, that Hamas will never seek peace with Israel, and that Hamas intentionally puts its own civilians in harm's way.

So many of the deaths are war crimes, on both sides, yes, Israel is more capable and therefore more deaths are on their hands, and yes, I'd prefer it to stop.

My argument though is this is inevitable, that ultimately Hamas bears more of the blame because they were the ones that jumped straight from protesting to indiscriminate mass attacks intended to cause Israeli casualties, and that a nation that was created as a haven for Holocaust survivors is going to look at a polity that clearly wants to kill all the Jews in a way much different than you or I would.

But then,that goes back to another belief I have - because of these things there's no end in sight. Any peace is a lull because Hamas lacks the ability to continue, not because they desire peace.

Israel isn't going to deal with a group with aspirations of another holocaust, so we are going to see this go on.

Could be, but honestly, I don't think the US has that much power over Israel anymore. US aid to Israel is less than 1% of their economy now, and while they appreciate the US aiding them at the UN there's very little the UN can actually do to them.

It may be they've simply achieved their aim - rocket attacks went from an average of 300 a day down to just a few last night.

Bailey pointed out that a lot of this might be being driven by Netanyahu's personal political and therefore legal needs due to corruption charges, and I agree. But the coalition government fell apart without the Palestinian faction of the Knesset, and new elections have already been called.

Show me the Hamas owned businesses doing trade in our nations and I'll join the boycotts of them.

Show me the arms sales to Hamas by our nations and I'll support the protests of them.

Show me the Hamas supporting groups vetoing calls for ceasefires in the UN, and I'll speak out against them.

If you can't point me to any of them, then perhaps you understand why one side gets more attention, because they're the war crimes we can actually try and do something about.

We can speak out against Hamas as well, which is what I am doing. And when people engage in hyperbole equating Israel with the Nazi's practice of the Holocaust we can point out the historical inaccuracy. I didn't notice you leap to point out how problematic that was.

And we certainly speak out against Hamas human rights violations of their own people, such as their imprisonment of critics for expressing their political beliefs, and their vast censorship program designed to bar books, periodicals and broadcast media to their people who don't support their religious war and the indoctrination they openly practice to engage in it.
https://www.amnesty.org/en/latest/n...y-detention-of-critics-in-west-bank-and-gaza/

And I can do these things while openly stating that we should cut off backing to Israel until they themselves put in a more peaceful government, as I 've done several times in this thread.

Except that most of my posts in this thread have been responding to absurdities like the idea that any criticism of Israel means they don't have a right to defend themself.

Most? OK, Bailey.

And a lot of mine have been dealing with extremely high levels of hyperbole.

I officially apologize for the one time I conflated you with the 4-5 other posters I was also discussing things with at the time, including the two who questioned the very notion of a nations' right to exist.

But no, I don't think that the only reason we are continuing to engage each other is that I have indicated all criticism of Israel means that they don't have the right to defend themselves.

After all, as you have already acknowledged, I've criticized them too, and even suggested real action should be take to disentangle US foreign policy from the Netanyahu government.

But as bad as they are, I do maintain Hamas is significantly worse, and if the comments are running 5-1 against Israel the other POV is valid and should be championed.