Why do conservatives care about Israel?

And you Brits aren't sucking Muslim cock? Hell, you can't even fly the British flag in Great Britain for fear of offending them.

But I thought it was about self determination? Now you're suggesting it's about strategic interest. I cam get behind this idea, I just wish people would be honest.

Which is still not an acceptable justification for colonization. It's still a case of foreigners displacing and/or segregating native residents.

It's certainly not as simple as most people make it to seem, true, and the roots of the conflict are not nearly as old as most people seem to think either.

They were European. Europeans have a long history of doing this sort of thing.

Those are in fact just as susceptible to the influences of money, power, and geopolitics. Why do we give so much aid to Israel compared to other 20th century victims of genocide? Israel is near the top of the list--where do Cambodia, Rwanda, China, Russia, Korea, etc. rank? Why do we overlook Israel's human rights violations but call out the violation of human rights when it suits us?

Money, power, and (geo)politics.

Why can't you have both? Are self determination and friendship somehow exclusive?

Did you just accuse the Jews of running the media? Seriously, that's my line -- from 2005.

Pretty sure Marlon Brando got there first....

You can, but since we usually don't care about self determination, or to say the least care selectively, let's not pretend that's the reason for friendship.

If we allowed our allies to have self-determination for the last 50-60 years we would have few allies left. More like self-determination unless it conflicts with US interests. Hint: it usually conflicts with US interests.

Simply supporting Israel isn't particularly strange. I generally support Israel -- anybody who's been through a couple of Israel/Palestine threads here knows I'm generally of the opinion that when you're surrounded by religious fanatics who want you dead, sometimes you're going to have to do some unsavory things to survive.

But for some, it's almost a fetish, where the slightest whiff of disapproval of anything Israel does is met by shrieks of condemnation. Maybe it is the End Times thing. Maybe it's a natural offshoot of hating Muslims. Who knows?

Judge it for what you will but according to a friend of mine who's a lobbyist in DC the power rankings go something like:

Old People
Jews
Guns
Women
Environment
Everything Else.

When it comes to 'issues' politics. Of course business trumps them all.

I support Israel, but I do think we should call them out for being dicks when those times arise.

There's actually a smidgen more atheists in the country than Jews....which means, if we could somehow get all the fucking atheists off their asses, and chipping into a pot, and channel that into lobby power, we could very easily kick ALL this religion horseshit out of our politics.

Yeah, but you guys are kind of like the Tea Party. You're very clear about what you don't want, but...

Yeah, dem nasty muzzies.




Wondering what that has to do with Israel though....

Well, like I say, the notion of whether or not they are foreigners is not entirely cut and dried, and to understand the issues in the region and the Israeli's zionist claims to the region it's necessary to understand their argument.

No I didn't accuse the Jews of "running the media", rather having a considerable influence. There is a distinct difference.

If business trumps them all then Jewish business are probably well placed.

Robots.
No religion in politics, and we all get a robot.
No...not get... compulsory robots.

What is that difference, in your scenario, exactly?

He wants Muslims to have considerable influence in the media.

I understand their argument and I don't think religion mixed with "we used to live here thousands of years ago" is a valid argument, mostly because the people who they displaced/are displacing also have a just as valid religious and historical claim (and some of them are also Jewish), and also because the religion argument is stupid and should be invalid. At this point though, they have settled the place and it would be pointless for them to move. I think they have every right to govern themselves and live peacefully, and they definitely have the right to defend themselves against others in the region, but they should quit being dicks about it to the native residents they displaced.

Jewish businesses that sell guns to women in order to protect the environment.

Well, the German Jew has spots, but the Russian Jew has these stripes here, see?

The usual "Hey, look over there!" which is what passes for logical argument with them.


Another reason for the U.S.'s love affair with Israel is the parallel with its own founding. Grab a piece of land, claim you've "discovered" it, chase off or kill off anyone who was living there before you, then have lots and lots of kids and bring more and more folks in from the Old Country in the hope of legitimizing your claim by virtue of sheer numbers.

That it was Britain who tried to destroy the Americans' claim to sovereignty but, by contrast two centuries later, mandated Israel's, is a minor detail whose irony escapes them, because they'd have to turn off American Idol long enough learn some history in order to know about it in the first place.

Your view of history is . . . interesting.

Show me where it's inaccurate.

Since last night's debate mentioned Israel 40-something times, and Europe once, I thought it was a good time to bump this.

Mittens tried to make hay off the fact that as President, Obama hasn't visited Israel. Of course, it took George W. Bush seven years to so, while Bush Sr. and Reagan never got there at all.

But given the conservative Year Zero philosophy, those past presidents never existed, and so we're left with Obama "snubbing Israel" in a vacuum.

Serious answer: A lot of the evangelicals are barking mad, we're talking howling at the moon. They desperately want Jesus to come back and they believe that can't happen until the end of the world so... They want to speed the whole process up by triggering a nuclear war now. They want to see Israel fighting with the entire muslim world so that way they can trigger the end of days and the magic man in the sky will supposedly come back to them.

Like I said, those people are dangerously delusional and they need to be locked up not dictating national policy but this is the state of things.