Why do conservatives care about Israel?

I see what you did there.

Wyoming is much more beautiful than the desert they're currently inhabiting. Why not pull a TNG "Homeward" and move them to Wyoming?

(Notice I didn't go with the more evil and plagiarized plot of Star Trek: Insurrection)

This thread makes me laugh. You have armchair politicos, like the people who post here, making declarations about why they support Israel. The Israelis have had a hard time, they are a democracy, the evil Arab and Muslim nations are out to get them, they are defending themselves against the Palestinians, blah, blah blah.

The reality, however, is that the reason senior politicians and various US governments support Israel is because the Jewish lobby is very powerful and influential in both Washington and the media. Quite simply you need to keep the American Jews on side if you are to do well both financially in terms of campaign money and media support, and political lobbying. That's what it all really comes down to. Money and support.

It's much like the same reason we read righteous posts like Paladin's about how Israel is the most free country in the Middle East, yet the United States is busy sucking the cocks of the Saudis, arguably the least free of all Missle Eastern countries. Yep, it's that money thing again.

Basically the electorate are suckered into believing that this is actually about the Israel place in the world. That's a delusion promoted by bullshit speeches and rhetoric. The reality is the above, which goes on behind closed doors.

Just this instance?

It was chosen since it was their historical homeland. And that choice came with the ratification of YOUR country's leadership.

They already have their own country. I don't think they'd be interested.

Besides, fond as I am of the Israelis, I have no desire to give them any part of MY country.

...forcing out the people who had been living there all this time through colonization.

Well, in their case, the Jews were reclaiming their ancestral land after a few million were exterminated in the Holocaust.

In our case, it was people who came overe here from your tiny little island and wanted their own nation.

Those are all facts.

Maybe, but the question was addressed at least in part to me, and I responded with why *I* care about Israel.

You seem to think that because some issues are determined by money, power, geopolitics, etc., that all of them must be. If you look for consistency in the diplomatic world, you won't find it.

I believe everything I've stated. I'm not "suckered;" I'm as aware of your viewpoint as you are. And, while I acknowledge that your view has some validity, it's not the reason why I have *my* view.

So, take away all the money and bullshit...what would YOU want to happen to Israel?

Due to the fact that the majority of Jews tend to stay within their own ethnicity (at least they did up until the past 20 years or so) most European Jews carried ethnic traits handed down over many centuries from the original Israelites. So it's not entirely the case that some completely unrelated set of Jews decided to claim the land as their own. That's one of the many reasons why the situation with Israel and the Arab world is not nearly as simply as those who take one side or the otehr would tend to make out.

No, see, it's the usually lazy straw man style of argument. Find something that involves Britain and assume that all the Brits will be offended by it's mention.

I doubt if anyone here "doesn't care" about Israel.

However, the question is why people act as though Americans should care about Israel almost to the level they care about America. There are plenty of other places in the globe that got rough deals from everyone that generally aren't cared about and certainly aren't cared about to the extent of Israel by the average politician, plenty of other places where "never again" should apply, etc.

So?
Wind history far back enough, we all ought to be back in Africa.

My personal opinion isn't really relevant to the discussion since the question posed by the thread was regarding the support for Israel from Conservative America.

However, my personal desire would be peace, with the recognition of Palestine as a nation state, and an agreed fixed border. I have no desire to see Israel removed from the region as I believe that historically they have just as much claim to reside in the area as ethnic Palestinians.

I am very much split on the issue of Israel, Palestine and Israel's place in the Middle East. I do not approve of the actions of many Middle Eastern nations towards Israel, but, at the same time I do not approve of the way Israel also goes about it's foriegn policy on many issues, which I think creates a great deal of tension in the region and undermines the moral superiority over the Arab and Islamic nations that Israel claims for itself.

Unfortunately, what I have come to learn from a lot of pro-Israel Americans is that if you do not take sides that somehow means you are anti-Israeli. As moronic and bereft of logic as it is to translate fence sitting to taking a side, that's the response I am used to. No doubt at some point in this discussion the same yiresome accusation will be made.

Okay, then. Realize that the accusation "Support Israel? Religious nut/indoctrinated by monied interests!!!" bit is as tiresome for me as the "Criticize Israel? ANTI-SEMITE!!!" bit is for you.

The other countries aren't cared about because the sheep electorate doesn't get told about them. Again, it comes down to what I said above, Investment of $$$$ by the Jewish lobby in politics and media. The size of the Jewish lobby for outweighs that of any other ethnic lobby and has for more people in positions of power than any other ethnic lobby. Ergo isn't hardly surprising they are not hearing about poverty problems in, for example, Kazakhstan.

That's what makes me laugh when I read the opinions of some Conservative Americans who are busy telling us that the Jews have had a rough time in history and deserve this that and the other, and therefore that is a reason to support Israel, yet when the discussion turns around to another nation or people in need, there are derided as "third world savages living in shitholes that nobody cares about".

What it shows is that many people do not have the capacity for independant thought. They cannot make their own mind up on a situation. They need to be fed a line of righteousness and they find a way to stick to it and justify it in their minds. It's one of the reasons I have always found the idea of political party leanings to be such an obsurd notion. Since there are so many different and entirely seperate political issues, it always struck me as stupid that there are so many people out there that believe you cannot have a conservative view on one issue and a liberal one on another. Allegiance to a one political train of thought is for the weakminded who cannot proiperly think about or debate an issue.

I don't believe anybody has accused you of that. I was merely giving commentary on the general dichotomy between what conservatives in the electorate think they are supporting and the actually, real life reason for the support.

As for the second half of your sentence, anyone who calls me an anti-semite would have to be loose in the head since I am half Jewish.

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Which issues aren't determined by money, power or geopolitics? Particularly in the area of international relations?

The problem I have there is the idea of the "real" reason. If we both believe in X, you because of A, and me because of B, then both reasons are "real."

SELF-LOATHING JEW!!1!

Most positions on human rights, humanitarian aid, etc. People do actually value these things, you know.

Values can be compromised, sure, and, from a pragmatic standpoint, they should be if there is sufficient gain to be realized from doing so. But I don't think we realpolitik everything out the door.

I'm rejecting it because it doesn't make sense to me.

American conservatives are by and large evangelical Christians, who don't give a damn about American Jews. Why would they care more about Israeli Jews?

Yes. Many nations and peoples suffered horribly during World War II. Yet we seem to have closer relationships with the countries who perpetrated those horrors than we do with the victims.

And that says a whole hell of a lot about you.

So many reasoning errors in just two sentences!

So was Hitler.

Agree or disagree: We (and by we here I mean "America") frequently turn relatively blind eyes to many violations of human rights when they are committed by our allies or friends.

Agree or disagree: We at least occasionally are guilty of committing human rights violation ourselves.

Agree or disagree: We generally don't go after (and by go after, I mean actually use more means than the occasional harsh word/sanctions) human rights violators who have sufficient money, power or geopolitical clout (such as China, Saudi Arabia, Russia, apartheid-era South Africa, etc.)

By definition, humanitarian aid involves money.

Can you think of a single example where we -- or any country, really -- acted against what it perceived to be its interest in money, power or geopolitics?

The one possible exception that comes to mind is disaster relief and such. But even that comes down at least in part to self-image and geopolitics, and money. It would be unseemly for a country like the U.S. to not support a disaster-stricken nation.