Atheist airman must swear 'so help me God' or get out in November

It's the only building on base that.......isn't a "Government" building. Thought actually goes into the design.

Shut up, Dayton4.

Because my word means something to me, if no one else. All we really have are our words, and our actions to back them up. If I swear an oath, I will do my best to keep it, but I will not swear upon something I don't believe in. How many Christians would swear on the Satanic Bible? How many Muslims would swear on the Book of Mormon? It's about being true to your principles. You don't need a god to be moral, or ethical. In that way, you shouldn't be forced to swear in the name of one.

When I joined the Air Force back in 1980 (I served AF and Army) in basic training somebody brought up during a class the point that
the AF had a lot of restrictions on personal freedoms that would seem to be heavy-handed. One of the instructors said "you still have all your Constitutional rights........
they just temporarily on hold for now." At the time it sounded silly, but eventually it made sense. You do give up some rights to protect the rights of those who can't or won't serve.
When you exit the service to be a civilian with more freedoms, another young person takes the Pepsi Challenge to keep your old ass safe.

So it's not that we don't wish to live by the Constitution, we just can't for the good of everyone we protect.

Swearing an oath on something you don't believe in cheapens the oath.

Does anyone have an actual defense of the requirement that goes beyond just mocking anyone who objects?

No, because from my relatively short time in the military, you can get fucked over and depending on the higher up doing the fucking, all the black-and-white rules will be ignored. Welcome to 'Murica.

This is the thing I just don't understand--are liberals really this unable to understand rational thought and reasoning, or are they deliberately obtuse, throwing up straw men to confuse arguments?

To recap, by definition, "atheist" means someone who doesn't believe in a god--any god. So asking an atheist to swear to [G]od is like asking a Christian to swear on a copy of Spiderman #500. Or a Muslim to swear on a "Star Trek: Remastered" DVD box set. Christians, in case this is still unclear after the second time I've explained it, believe in Satan. So asking them to swear on a book glorifying Satan would be a completely different thing. I don't know enough about Islam or Mormon to speak on that, but given that Muslims tend to kill each other for not being Muslim enough, I'm guessing they have some pretty strong beliefs too.

Hell, if you want, start a club. Make people swear on a My Little Pony in order to join it. See if I complain about how that offends my beliefs.

You don't seem to comprehend the idea of the sacred. Why swear on something if it means nothing?

@Volpone: are you unable to see that such an oath would be a lie from an atheist? Follow-up question: do you understand the purpose of an oath?

Also, just curious, but is everything in your world a question of liberal v conservative? Because it sure makes you look stupid to introduce it in this kind of conversation.

How about "Mein Kampf"?

Would you swear on that?
No religion there.
No supernatural devil or false gods there.

I wouldn't.
Why?
It's fucking "Main Kampf", asshole.

There's shit in the Bible I object to exactly as much as "Mein Kampf".
Easily.

When did you join?

I went four years ago, and no one gave a shit so long as we were productive and the ones that went didn't go AWOL or fuck up while marching over there. Hell, many of them were just going to have some semi-alone time with their boot boos anyway.

Did you tell your kids Santa Claus brought them presents when they were little?

That is a disingenuous statement. You don't pledge a binding oath to your children about Santa Claus. Do you even think about what you're saying? You seem to be indicating in this thread, so far, that in order to get what you want, you'll say or swear to anything without regard to whether you'll actually keep that oath.

So you don't understand the questions? Or are you just not sure how to answer in a way that doesn't make you look like a dumbass? If you think it's about your version of Santa, wrong answer.

Depends on the place, here the celebrant actually has some things they are legally required to say at a wedding.

Most atheists don't either, you're the one making things into a bigger deal than they are.

As an atheist for example I had no problem getting married in a church, married by a minister from my mothers different Uniting church, with hymns sung before the ceremony, Greek Orthodox readings performed by members of my partners family and prayers led by the minister as part of the ceremony.

Those things are incredibly important to some people, and have deep meaning to them. I simply arranged it so that I would not have to say anything I didn't believe, as to speak words I did not believe in would be to mock the meaning others do hold in them.

One of the most consistent lessons in the New Testament seems to be how faith and integrity in your actions are more important that meaningless ritual. That's a beautiful sentiment in my opinion, and it's sad how some like yourself, @Volpone and @Chaos Descending seem to reject it.

Hasn't there been an odd streak of fundamentalist fanaticism running through the USAF for a few years now?

2002, even got to start as an E3 because of my 3 years in the Naval Sea Cadet Corps. However, my stay was short, since I was.....misinformed about how long weed is in your system.


Wait, boot boos?

I'm not the one trying to martyr myself and be the poster child for a bunch of people with an agenda.

HEY! Spoiler that info! MY kids are in their 20's and I still haven't told them Santa isn't real. They might be looking over my shoulder when I'm on the computer.

Man, why does everyone I knows Navy story end with "So I said "fuck this noise", and got out."?

No you're not, you're the person saying someone should lie about their beliefs and corrupt the integrity of their oath.

One of those two people is worse than the other, and I don't think it's the one you're thinking.

Not many people stay in until retirement. The corporate grind/politics/etc. can get on your nerves that's for sure.

In Archangel's defense: He's a moron, and cannot help it.

Nah man, it totally makes sense. The airman isn't doing is out of conviction, he's clearly doing it for the attention, which is why he is anonymous.

My Great Grandfather and my Great Uncle were the last in my family to ride it out. Shit, Grandpa joined in the mid 30's, and didn't get out until the mid 70's. I wanted to make Chief like my Grandmother and put in my 20, but the Navy is a bit more....picky than they were in the past.

It really isn't a difficult question. It can be answered "yes" or "no." Did you tell your kids Santa Claus was real when they were little.

That you choose to dodge such a simple question and instead rail at it and attempt to belittle the questioner is pretty much a textbook Castle response. Perhaps Anc should ban you as well for contributing to dragging down the board.

In Volpone's defense: He's also a moron, and cannot help it.

There's lots of ways to answer it.
For example, you can indeed play the Santa game with a wink-wink with children who don't believe in it.
But, as John said in post #73, the Santa game isn't a binding oath.
Your analogy is a bubbling vat of dipshittery.

Answer my questions first.

You're fooling nobody with the Santa Claus metaphor.

And you guys wonder why this place is dying. The level of intolerance and distrust is such that gul, The Great And Powerful can't even admit that when his kids were little he told them Santa Claus brought them presents because he's afraid he wouldn't Win an Argument.

Well, enjoy yourselves. The 3-10 people I see here can have a merry time until their flying monkeys run out of Outsiders to attack and the whole place collapses into cannibalism.