Rich, Black, and Flunking..

Hardly. Every child in this country gets a free education. How many people living in the ghettos squander it? At least 50% drop out and out of the remaining number, how many just don't give a shit? How many women in the ghetto get knocked up by men when neither one of the parents can support the baby? How many men in the ghetto decide to commit a crime? How many decide not to learn things like proper English? How many parents in ghettos don't provide good influences and instead allow the child to emulate thugs and gang members? How many people in the ghetto actively tell a child he's wrong when he tries to better himself? How many people in the ghetto actually believe they are entitled to a free ride and then do nothing to get off of the government teat? How many people in the ghetto see a crime and then don't call the police?

If anything it's like the rapist getting VD from his victim and then crying out he never had a chance, in spite of his bad decisions.

But blacks aren't even the baby resulting from the rape. Since discrimination is still occurring, they are still the original victim.

Okay, let me rephrase my comment:

There's so many things wrong with that analogy that i don't think there's any point in going into it, simply because if you think it's a valid analogy, your brain obviously doesn't work in a way that will ever be able to understand my argument.

All right. If that's your concern, let's take a step back and look at reality.

Too many taxidrivers, according to Hutchinson, avoid picking up blacks. Let's say that you're a black executive and this happens to you one day. No big deal, right? Maybe. Let's say it happens a second day. Now you're getting angry. Now let's say that it happens at least two or three times a week.

What some people seem to say is that it's okay to blame blacks for the fact that taxidrivers don't want to pick them up. Why, exactly, is it okay? The black executive certainly doesn't deserve being discriminated against by taxi drivers, does he? Then why does he deserve being told that it's essentially his own fault that taxi drivers discriminate?

If you allege that it's fair because it's supposedly his culture that created the problem, then what happens to the argument that it's unfair to blame the white race for instances, both historical and present, of discriminatory conduct whites inflicted upon blacks?

Deserving has nothing to do with it. Do I deserve to be compared to every hillbilly with no teeth who sleeps with his sister just because I live in West Virginia? No, and it does affect me negatively when I have to deal with people from outside of here because they automatically assume I'm an inbred hilljack.

We're past the era of legal discrimination. We're in the hearts and minds stage. Now maybe your taxi driver doesn't like to pick up blacks. How about how those same blacks come across to him? A black man in a suit and tie will get a cab. A black man dressed like a thug won't. Is that really the cab driver's fault that the black man in question presents himself as a thug and then gets dealt with in a different manner because of it?

As the article itself said, the black executive was dressed as an executive, not as a rapper.

Your response says that "legal discrimination" is at an end. That's not the end of the story, and it's not really even technically true. Discrimination is particularly easy in jurisdictions in which strong federal or state laws do not apply regarding the business in question.

For example, Title VII of of the Civil Rights Act of 1964, a major law relied upon in the struggle against discriminatory practices, states the following:

Plenty of employers are outside the scope of that particular act.

One must think critically about these matters rather than blow off considerations of blame as easily imputed to victims. In this thread alone, we've seen denials that black culture derides success. We also been presented by anecdotal evidence of discrimination that posters such as the respondent fails to accurately interpret, let alone dispute. These failures bode ill for even an elementary understanding of the problems facing minorities as common sense is thrown out in favor of resentment and the political ideology of selfish interest.

I would have been surprised if you agreed, actually.

On to something else that Wilbury said:

Why is it that it is assumed that it's only black people from ghettos who are discriminated against? I'd venture to say that were Colin Powell not so well-known, even someone as accomplished as he would be discriminated against by some people in this country, and purely out of a consideration of his race.

All that this talk of blaming blacks does is attempt to deny the basis of any redress for this kind of blatant injustice. Too many are fooled into believing that the only people who are discriminated against are those whose behavior cause it, which is absurd almost beyond belief.

When did I mention blacks at all in that paragraph you quoted?

The fact of the matter is all the things that were fought for against dogs and firehoses in the 1950s and 60s, all the advances made in the 1970s in courts, are being pissed away by the current generation in the ghetto. Everything that people suffered for in the streets and courtrooms so they could have a better life for their children are being willfully discarded. In it's palce is a new mindset of victimhood and entitlement.

If you got a bad hand in life, get over it. If things were bad for your ancestors, I'm sorry to hear it, but I didn't do it. Pull yourself up by the bootstraps and work to better yourself and your community. Aspire to be greater than you are. Quit blaming others for your failings and quit being a victim. Take responsibility for yourself and your children.

Since this thread is about blacks, it's implied.

That's an unwarranted set of statements if I ever read one. The article in question isn't even about ghettoized blacks. Why, in a discussion about blacks that are not in ghettos, would you possibly hold the behavior of other kinds of blacks against them? It makes zero sense.

Could it be because you justify discrimination on the basis of race?

That's easy for you to say. However, for millions of Americans who approve of a less "libertarian" approach, and who themselves have benefited from the intervention of laws, your approach is clearly unpersuasive.

If self-help is all it's racked up to be, why do even the privileged congregate in fraternities, secret societies, and country clubs? If "pulling yourself up by your own bootstraps" is so easy, who not teach yourself to read and write, and why go to college at all?

Just as it's literally impossible to pull oneself up by one's bootstraps, it's unreasonable to expect victims who continue to be victimized to successfully fight those with every interest in keeping them down. To believe that they and to deny them any help despite the legacy and continuation of oppression is to victimize them all over again.

Those who have all the power in the world have every incentive to keep their power and dismissively tell others to help themselves knowing how almost impossible it is to do so. That much is understandable. What is less understandable is why otherwise intelligent people who could easily see through to the selfish motives of the monied classes would take their side knowing that they themselves, as ordinary people, are also likely to fail when the time comes that they are forced to seek, hat in hand, the assistance of the power elite.

That's a bit of a harsh analogy, isn't it?

Today’s generation of Black Americans have been brainwashed...heavily


I could go into a long detailed explanation for it, but it would take pages of typing to explain it all, so I’ll try to keep it as short as possible:

· The Vietnam War took a very heavy toll on Black America during that era. The “Powers that Be” are blaming Martin Luther King and his Civil Rights Leaders for many of the troubles that the Govt experienced during that time. (Including the Govt losing international support for the war which in turn lead to the Govt losing the war itself). A lot of this countries enemies (mainly Russia) took notice of it, and have made it known that they have every intention of taking advantage of the heavy distrust that both the general public, and a lot of the nations civil rights leaders have towards the Govt today

· Our Govt is afraid that if we end up going to war with either Russia or any other country that Russia is backing up (Iran for instance), that by trying to use things like poverty, oppression, racial injustice and anything else along those lines, that Russia may try to recruit the Civil Rights Leaders and as many minorities as possible into joining forces with them.


Thus to Eliminate this very possible threat, the "Powers that Be" have elected to use various methods to brainwash Black American youth into destroying itself. Mainly from eliminating any and all positive role models, and replacing them with unproductive figures and images that will lead to their own destruction (Gangster Rap, Thug Life, Guns, Gangs and Drugs) ect.

There is a whole lot more to this, but it would take up pages and pages of this thread and I really don’t think you would want to spent the time reading through it all, so I’ll stop here.

You could ask every one of these questions about poor white people. It's not just "in the ghetto" or black people. So the question is what is going on in our society when so many people at the bottom of the economic scale are dysfunctional?

Preach!
They buy into the Libertopia myth and the belief that their million dollars is just around the corner.

So-called? It is reverse discrimination.

Wrong. Nixon was the first president to order the Justice Dept. to institute affirmative action.

Oh, really? And what great things did Clinton and Carter do for blacks?

Blah, blah, blah.

The reasons why blacks have not succeeded are:

1) black men make black women pregnant and then abandon them;

2) the pregnant black women go on welfare and quickly realize that having more babies will get them higher welfare payments and other goodies;

3) the black babies grow up in a peer culture that considers good manners, speaking correct English, doing homework, reading books, and working in a regular job "being too white";

4) criminal behavior by blacks is celebrated in gangsta rap culture;

5) affirmative action (reverse discrimination) and fear of lawsuits that allege racism ensure that blacks in college and on the job are not held to the same standards of performance as whites.

"...concentration of capital...false consciousness..." Your jargon is Marxist.

Have you considered thinking for yourself instead of spouting what some lefty professor told you way back when?

Vandygoddess meant to hit disagree for Starkt. Congrats on getting an undeserved freebie.

I've been getting them all my life. It's just been one handout after another you know...

Rather than constructive debate you charge in with your big ass teeth gnashing and your claws out.



Look at Anna, years younger than you yet she has the maturity of a 35 year old! And she hasn't finished college yet!!

You are just a freakish drama queen.

black men make white women pregnant and abandon them too

...and asian women

...and south american women

...and hispanic women

...and middle eastern women..ect

That used to be true, untile President Clinton put an end to it by signing the new Welfare Reform Bill

Can't argue with that one. Thats due to a lack of positive black role models (especially males) in both the Media and the educational system

Can't argue with that one either

Now THIS is one that needs attention. Affirmative Action was not intended to discriminate against anybody. It was only meant to level the playing field to give a fairer opprotunity to those that are politically disadvantaged. Note that this did not only apply to blacks, it also applied to white females as well as every person of color in this country. Asian, Hispanic, Native American, ect.

This is a complaint that many people hear from whites that think that since the system we live under is run by caucasians, that they are automatically entitled to a better life than everyone else simply because they are white... and that sir.. is a bunch of horseshit. I personally have met many whites (especially down south) that live in trailer parks or "sweat boxes" as they call it, that will spend all day smoking and drinking all of their money away, then complain about their livelihood. They won't go to school, they won't even try to find better paying jobs, they will just sit there waiting for the world to beat a path up to their front doorstep, then scream "reverse discrimination" when manna from heaven doesn't fall out of the sky for them. If they want things to happen for themselves, they have to get up off their butts and make them happen.

* Go back to school and get a higher education

* Mail out resumes

* Attend Job Seminars

* Actually go out AND LOOK for better paying jobs


I would tell then "Don't blame the system, Blame yourself dude. The only person holding you down... is YOU!!"

^the arguments above were from starkt, not excelsius.

Looking at Ogbu's Wikipedia page, I learned

A) he's been dead for about four years. I'd assumed this was a relative recent article that Tas had brought up.

B) Another 18-month study looking at blacks and whites found little difference between their attitudes

C) Another study found that this "acting white" business held sway at mixed public schools but not so much at private or predominantly black schools.

D) Ogbu was a support of teaching Ebonics, which in and of itself discredits him completely IMO.

Wrong.

I must be getting old. I don't recall people acting a certain way. because they 'didn't want to be seen as acting white'

Now when I was in school we would mess with a few kids for acting white but they never changed because of us.

IMO, the people that do this so-called black acting when they actually have the ability to speak right and study has got to be a small percentage.

I think the dumb ass black kids have been telling folks some bullshit when in reality they are near retards.

What do they do? Say.."I ain't studying or talking right. I ain't no whitey!'

Are they saying that this is some kind of growing fad? I just don't see it amongst young people. I see no rebellion against education. I just see kids that aren't too smart, not getting help at home and possiblly involved with drugs.

I'm wondering where do they come up with this? Who did they ask? Drop-out crack heads??

I never saw it much either. I always had my face buried in a book and never got harassed over it.

What I mean is that people act how they act. Even blacks consider some of these jive talking, so-called black acting folks as ignorant fools.

in many cases the parents aren't too sharp either.

Why don't they spend more time analyzing white people. Cuz to me, this is largely a crock of shit with no value.

Blacks don't study cuz some consider it sellg out.

Blacks don't want to sound like whitey.

Why do people listen to the fools that say this crap?

OK, I'm a researcher and I need some answers. I'll go talk to the dumbest bunch of students I can find and ask them.

BTW, are all the kids of successfull white families all going to Ivy League universitys??

It's a more comforting message than many of the alternatives, such as:
1. So many black people are failing because they go to second-rate schools.
2. So many black people are failing because blacks are genetically inferior.
3. So many black people are failing because racism in various forms still has too great an influence.

If the problem is that black people have got it in their heads that doing the basics to succeed is equivalent to "acting white," then not only do non-black people bear no responsibility for that belief, there also is nothing they can really do to change it.

Hmmm, very interesting. But one thing I know is that able and smart kids are not doing a dumb act to be cool in the hood. That, I have never seen.

I admit that some have this thinking and in my book they are numbskulls. There will always groups that want to 'stay with their people' rather than enter the larger world.

I met many people who grew up in Harlem and in their life rarely left it.

I see Whites really pumping this theory up. But I never seen a black kid try to convert a plain talking, book reading black kid into a jive talking hood rat.

Raul the Red Shirt

Okay, I know reason #1 is wrong (in my area). Columbia County has some of the highest rated schools in Georgia. If a black kid is failing, they can't use this excuse here.
Reason #2 hold zero water, because black immigrants are generally smart as hell and do well once they learn the language and culture (and these 2 two things don't neccessarily stop them.)
Reason #3 can be true But not always. This depends on where or how they live in many cases.

I don't think you understood his post.

I'm sorry to read of Professor Ogbu's passing.

Out of interest, I Googled his name and came across the following article, which contextualizes his findings. Although it's dated, it still contains information new to this discussion.

See: http://www.racematters.org/whyareblackstudentslagging.htm

Wassamatta?! De white folk don wanna discuss the fate of the poor black chillens no more?

Sorry. I was off getting a new job, despite my ethnic background and the prejudice associated with it.