Montana home defence or murder

So this article linked BBC story about a guy in Montana, killing an intruder. Got to admit this is the first I’ve read of it, so there may be better more informed articles out there….
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-27243115

I've used spoiler tags to hide the full article so it doesn't make the post huge. If theres a better way, then Im sure a mod can fix it for me.

Nothing about this on WF yet? I’ve got to admit, there may well be. I don’t venture into every gun thread as once you have seen a couple…….

Regardless of degenerating into the usual pro gun v anti gun slinging shitfest, can we maybe explore this Castle doctrine and (if the linked article is accurate), the trap setting.
So, the deceased is in the garage at midnight, now Im sure there will be people happy to say there could be many reasons for it. He’s drunk, he’s lost, he’s just looking for a place to crash etc. I would suggest a little clutching at straws there, and in reality, he is more than likely up to no good. Particularly when we learn that there had been recent break ins.

Now, the law is the law and if someone is breaking into your property you have the right to shoot them. I get that, but I don’t for one minute see how it can be right to leave the garage open, wifes purse in the garage, as bait, sit up all night with your shotgun, and then go kill the guy. That to me, screams pre-meditated murder.

Thoughts………

"On the night of the shooting, Mr Kaarma and his partner Janelle Pflager left their garage door open, and Ms Pflager left her purse in the garage in order to bait intruders, she told police."

If this part is true then it's murder. And for the woman as well.

You can't lay bait out to trap people so you can shoot them. For that reason Castle Doctrine doesn't apply here which is why he was charged with murder.

Yep, he's boned (well it is Montana, so...). In most "Castle" laws, one's life must be in, or felt to be in danger. Some brat sneaking into an open garage doesn't exactly qualify. That being said, I'm not shedding any tears over the death of a thief (let the pearl clutching commence...).

Yeah, this. If the article is accurate, it's murder, just as it would be in Germany. This is not a demonstration of castle doctrine. That said, I'm not a fan. I think there are too many ambiguities and to a certain extent, probably encourages assholes like Kaarma to set this kind of trap. Stand your ground is worse, but these laws are not well understood, and this type of thing can result.

As for whether there is already a thread? I don't think so. The US is a much bigger and more important country than Scotland. We can't be expected to get a discussion going over every instance of murder and mayhem. But since this made the Limey press, may as well go ahead with it.

Castle Doctrine and Stand Your Ground are fine laws that get misunderstood and abused a lot.

This case, however, is premeditated murder.
Anybody who ever studied anything about self defense with a firearm has learned that setting traps is flat-out wrong.

If a law is often misunderstood and abused, it might not be that fine of a law.

Lying in wait with a lethal weapon fully intending to use it to me constitutes premeditated murder.

Lots of homeowners have an exaggerated sense of their supposedly unlimited rights on their own property. No right is unlimited.

Just see how well that goes if you have a trampoline or a swimming pool open and in plain view of everyone.

Yep. Homeowners are guilty of murder.

Homeowners are not gods. Just because you have a title or a mortgage does not give you the right to serve as your own personal justice system. I do not believe anyone should be forced to retreat from their home in response to threatening actions but neither should they deliberately go about enticing such a threat in order to obtain "justice"

Wow, can't believe I actually agree with Dayton on something!

Gul, I'm too busy to bite I'm afraid. Need to try harder.

When is Apostle due to weigh in??

Laying in wait to shoot someone, yeah that is premeditated murder. But just because the purse was left there, doesn't invite someone in to do something. If a garage is left open, it doesn't mean that it's okay for someone to just walk in and take whatever they feel like. The German kid was most likely up to no good, but the fact that this guy just starting firing without looking does say that this guy was looking to kill just to kill.

And was that American or European Football?

See, in the Big Bad Gun Controlled Cities where I've lived, the kid would have knocked on the door and said "Hey, did you guys know someone left their purse in the garage? Thought I should tell you before someone walked off with it."

If he were sufficiently paranoid, he might think Don't go in the garage. Don't touch the purse. It's a setup, but at most he'd expect the homeowner to yell at him. "Hey, you? WTF are you doing? Get the fuck out of my garage!" so he'd knock on the door empty-handed.

But I guess in places where Everybody's Got Guns All the Time, people's minds work differently.

I'll just save this post for the next time someone is defending eminent domain.

What's the alternative? "You can't defend yourself or your home".

Laws are abused all the time, there is nothing uniques about these two.

I don't recall ever seeing anyone defending the abuses of ED that usually start the discussions. As a general rule you have to have provisions for ED no matter how much it makes internet Libertarians scream and cry.

You're absulutely right.

Where I grew in NC pretty much everyone had a least one gun in the house...my dad had an arsenal.

We would sometimes set traps 4 and 5 nights a week and kill people. When no thieves came in we would have to settle with killing neighbors, small children and pets.

In the Big Bad Gun Controlled Cities where you lived that kid would have been in the garage stealing everything he could just like in the Everybody's Got Guns All the Time City.

That is why that kid was in this garage that night. We can never prove it 100% of course but I'd bet there haven't been in burglaries since he took a bullet.

Try harder......

In California, no one cares enough to even bring up the issue, and probably wouldn't give enough of a shit to peek into anyone's garage.

I like how you know more about where I live than I do. It's like reading EP's posts about Japan.

Oh, and what Anna said.

Yes because everyone knows in the Big Bad Gun Controlled Cities that you lived in NO ONE ever broke the law. Sunshine and rainbows 24/7 where you've lived.

Because when your precious preconceived notions are questioned you resort to THE MOST EXTREME version of some you can come up with as a "counterargument."

No facts, just emotions. You're right. It's a Gunlubber thing. I wouldn't understand.

Lying in wait and firing without warning or imminent threat?

Bad shoot.

It's very probable the kid was up to no good, but taking another person's life is not justifiable if other reasonable avenues are open. And creating a situation to entice someone is way beyond the pale.

I would call this murder.

If you know someone is going to go after something or someone and you don't block access or secure the item/person, but lay in wait to kill, that's murder.

Please tell me YOU didn't just comment on others "preconcieved notions" ?

Please tell me you've got something to contribute besides mischaracterization and nannyism.



Meanwhile, in the Real World, let's look at the states with the most gun violence, shall we?


http://247wallst.com/special-report/2013/04/15/states-with-the-most-gun-violence/2/

Can you guess what all 10 states have in common? Sure you can!

Zombie's state doesn't make the Top 10 above, though it does elsewhere:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gun_violence_in_the_United_States_by_state

Yeah, I mischaracterized you...uh huh...OK.

As usual, I'm not going down the rabbit hole arguing with you.

But this would be a "chicken & egg" argument.

Do people own more guns in states with more gun violence because they fear the violence? Or is the gun violence a result of having more guns?

Be wary of basing your position on an argument that can be perfectly reasonable the exact opposite way.

Because, as usual, all you've got is an endless whine about why people won't do things your way.

Georgia's new All Guns All the Time policy should serve as proof of concept.