Next Pistol Purchase Advice

Shoes and I went out looking at pistols yesterday and I enjoyed his thoughts. I had been considering purchasing a 10mm Glock, but shoes advised it might have trouble standing a lot of shooting with such a high pressure round. I've also been considering a .357 magnum or 357 SIG, and even almost bought a Kimber .45 yesterday.

I currently carry an XD40. It is a great gun. I love the way it feels in my hands and that it is HIGHLY accurate for an out of box gun.

The reasons I'm wanting to switch are two-fold:
1. Memphis is seeing a surge crimes being committed by criminals wearing body armor. I train to shoot center mass because I know if the poo ever hits the wheel, the chances of me being able to hit any other shot are slim to none. I want something that can stop a criminal wearing something roughly equivalent to military grade body armor (my office landlord is a Shelby County deputy who says that is what the criminals appear to have - military grade body armor. My God, it's like Batman all over again).
2. I want something smaller. My xd40 is wearable , but it's not something I want to continue to wear every day.

I've looked at the following, and value your thoughts.
1. Smith & Wesson 340PD. An ultra light weight .357 magnum.
Pros: Light weight. Small. Easy to conceal and carry.
Cons: So light, it hurts to shoot. I'm a magnum shooter but this thing has no weight!
Cost: $800 + tax.
2. .45 Kimber of unidentified family. Yup, I forgot. I believe it had a 3" barrel. It had a teflon-like finish. I almost bought it, but I'm not sure a .45 will suit my purposes, Jeff Cooper be praised. If it will and I'm on crack, someone please convince me. I want that gun, and I will go buy it right away. It would have run $550 + 10.00 for background check (it's consignment, so no tax).
Pros: It's a 1911 with an action that is smooth as silk. Jeff Cooper be praised. Dove tail sights. Very concealable.
Cons: Not sure if it can move a criminal wearing body armor to a non-threat status.
3. Glock 29, 10mm
Pros: Excellent round. More powerful than a .357 - great penetration, best chance of punching through a criminal's light body armor. Flat shooting.
Cons: Overpenetration, would have to have grip extender to shoot comfortablly. Ammo is expensive. Shoes seemed to think they might not hold up.
Cost: $550 + tax, more with better sights.

After looking at guns, I couldn't find anything in .357 sig that I liked. I would appreciate your comments on the guns above, or any you think might be an option!

Those ultra-compact 1911's are historically unreliable. In fact, Kimber and Springfield both had a lot of teething problems when they first introduced the line.

There are two more issues you need to think about when you're carrying a concealed weapon.

#1 - You're hiding the grip, that's the part that protrudes and causes printing problems. If you're 4+ft tall, slide length is irrelevant to concealed carry. That why most people advise against carrying a full-size duty weapon concealed. But, even though they're full-sized weapons, 1911's and Hi-Powers make great concealed carry pieces because their profile is so flat compared to full size Sigs, GLOCKs, XD's, Smith's, and Rugers.

#2 - You're losing a lot of precious velocity on that .45ACP round by making the barrel that short. 'nuff said.


Oh, and I'll throw one last point out there that's just my personal preference on 1911's.

I don't like the compact models. I don't like the compact models because they destroy the natural balance of an otherwise perfect weapon. I don't like the compact models because they destroy the almost natural pointability of the weapon as an extension of your hand.

Yeah. A lot of good stuff there. I'm 6'4".

What is your thought on .357 vs. .45? Would the sheer "oomph" of getting a 230 grain slug slammed into your chest not once but several times be... adequate? Or am I really just trying to solve a rifle problem with a handgun?

I say go with the 10mm, but ignore the Glock if you can. Dan wesson makes 1911s in 10mm with a full 5" bbl and the Commander clone with the 4.25" bbl. I carry the 5" Razorback in 10mm as my normal carry gun for what it's worth.

As far as over penetration using the 10mm, I wouldn't worry about it. 185gr JHP isn't likely to overpenetrate the center mass of the target in any event, or even a skull in all likelyhood, and while 10mm can penetrate through walls, so can .45acp, 9mm, .40Short&Weak and pretty much everything larget than a BB.

While I am sure Glocks are fine firearms, I just don't like them. I don't like how they fit my hand, I don't like the lack of a slide safety, I don't like the looks of it. If you like Glocks, go with God, but I'll stick to the work of John Moses Browning, Hallowed Be His Name.

EDIT: Check out Page 7 of this document: http://www.firearmstactical.com/pdf/fbi_10mm_notes.pdf

Well... considering military grade is now AP 7.62 plates, I'm not sure you're gonna find a pistol that can defeat that.

Maybe I'm wrong, but that's my understanding... :flow2:

Hmmm.

The guy isn't military. I'll have to ask him to define "military grade."

So this got me thinking:

Is there a .17 HMR pistol? Would that be able to bust a AP 7.62 plate?

I wonder if the 5.7mm pistol rounds would be able to.

Yes, but only if you could get the armor piercing rounds for them.

I wouldn't think so. The .17 HMR has nowhere near the energy a 7.62 does.

Our's, their's, or both? And wouldn't the smaller size of the .17 HMR bullet give it an advantage?

Aim for the thigh.

The Mozambique Drill was invented just for guys wearing body armor.

Link?

Sorry, it's not a thing to buy, but a thing to do. Double tap to the sternum and if that doesn't put the man on the ground, one to the forehead.

I knew it wasn't a thing to buy. I was wondering if there was a link to the exercise.

How good are you with double taps? I suck.

The .17 HMR is small and fast, but it's not as fast as a 7.62 (not the 7.62x39 Russian and certainly not the 7.62x51mm NATO). It certainly has nowhere near the energy of either.

I can imagine how a small caliber projectile going REALLY fast could defeat armor designed for a bigger, slower caliber (e.g., a 5.56mm--a high speed .22!--will shoot through a vest designed to stop a .357 or .45 pistol slug), but I don't believe a .17 HMR could penetrate any armor strong enough to stop either 7.62. Now maybe something like a .17 Remington Fireball (.17 caliber slug at 4000 fps!) would do the job, I don't know...

The new 5.7x28mm used in the FN weapons is supposed to be able to defeat some lower levels of armor, but that's only when used with the AP ammo.

I had thought about one of those 5.7's, but it's banned at my shoosting range.

Really? Why?

Practice makes perfect my boy.

Buy some paper plates. Tack them up on a post 3 yards away and start double tapping. When you hit them consistantly at 3 seconds from first shot to rechambered after a second shot, move them back a few yards. Repeat until they are a good 20 yards away. Then bring them back to the three yard mark and add a second paper plate at head level and double tap the lower plate and put one through the top plate. When you got that down pat, move the plates back a little at a time as before.

Try to get the skills down with something like a .22lr target pistol if you can and then move up to something else when you have the skill down.

Apparently they like to go through the backstop... whereas .44's, .357's, etc don't (indoor range).

Get a Garand.

Problem solved.

Oh, I would love a Garand. Too bad they don't conceal carry well.

In researching Kimber for my own purchase, I saw a lot of complaints about their compact models. Additionally, I think the disassembly for the ultra carry is different and more difficult than on the full size. But if you go full size, I'd recommend it. I took mine to the range on Saturday for the first time, and it was a joy to shoot. I had two instances where the slide locked back with rounds still in the mag, but a couple drops of CLP fixed that right up. Next 50 rounds went through without a hitch. They're very ergonomic, and the trigger is smooth and light. My Kimber is also a hell of a lot more accurate than I am.

Nice rig!

I have a skyops holster which is somewhat similar. I think Galco makes them to tight for my gun though - it's a hard pull, even after I've oiled and "broken in" the holster. I also do the cargo shorts mag thing, save I drop a two mag holster in the pocket so they don't rattle around.

Your postil looks like it has a single stack mag, from the pictures. Is that right?`

I wear mine, even with the pain. Double stack.

Ooh! I totally forgot.

We were looking at Commander 1911's at this one place, and I think it was either a Kimber or a Para.

Get this.

It was DA/SA.

Hell, it might have been a DAO, but I was too repulsed to ask.

Actually, now that I think about it, it probably was DAO because the hammer didn't have a thumb whoopty-doo.

A 1911! JMB must be spinning in his grave.

IIRC, Para-Ordinance sells DA 1911s.