But there are contexts in which the slurs have teeth. Example: I am in a rough minority neighborhood and I'm being singled out for abuse and crime specifically because I am white. Regardless of how American society is at large, in that moment I am the vulnerable minority. I agree that power dynamics matter more than the plain words. But we need to recognize complexities beyond "white people are always and everywhere the privileged oppressors."
To some extent, yes. I have a cousin who, to this day, is somewhat prejudiced toward Hispanics because of being picked on in school in our majority-Mexican American hometown over forty years ago.
Don't you as a white person always retain the "call the cops, we know who they'll shoot first" leverage in a situation like that?
Are the cops going to arrive in time to save me from being mugged, gangbanged, or whatever? If that “leverage” exists, it only adds to the complexity of the power dynamics at play. It doesn’t simplify it.
Oh God, I thought it was just me. I like certain episodes of TNG like "The High Ground" and "The Loss" but otherwise...
Slang words used to describe POC are not just hurtful, but rooted in deep, extensive historical and cultural racism that has resulted in a great deal of suffering. And like it or not, white people were/are the beneficiaries of that legacy. Slang words used to describe whites--while rude and yes, perhaps bigoted--do not have that unfortunate cachet. So there is definitely a difference between the n-word and wypipo. Of course there is...none of us are even willing to type out the whole n-word! With that said, Lanzman has a point in that using any racially based slang words is really not okay. Calling white people crackers or wypipo is not going to rectify hundreds of years worth of injustice, and it's not going to help educate white people about their unfortunate historical legacy. It just perpetuates more division.
Keith Urban is the country singer who is married to Nicole Kidman. Karl Urban is McCoy/Butcher. By the way, I can't watch Karl Urban in anything anymore without expecting him to call someone a cunt. Hmm. That word is another thread in and of itself. Oh, and...
I have realized that part of being a racist is bringing up this idea that discussing racism or correcting for racism by trying to help correct for it is racist is racist. The racists do not want a discussion on racism because they want to stop any progress on it. This is why solutions like affirmative action are put down. This is why they say it is racist to say racism effects black lives. This is why they call BLM racism. This thread is the muddled shit we get when we include intellectually dishonest people like @oldfella1962 and now @Lanzman in the discussion. You are not honest actors in the discussion. You are actually coming in to derail the conversation with the eloquence of a dayton kitchens so we get distracted and this is what comes about. I will agree your tactic works because it catches people who are angry with an attempt to pretend there is a discussion going on, but you devolve it away from honesty and solutions, and really argue in bad faith with false victimization and bullshit. I know troll when I see a troll. I give you guys a 8 for form and stealth, along with the hook that seems to catch a lot of people. I would give it a 9, but it is not new. This is an easily copied tactic and is old and worn out as @garamet 's pussy and my glory hole.
Yanno, I took the same attitude ten years ago, telling gays that being rude wasnot gonna get people on their side for gay marriage and that being nice was the way to educate people. Funny story on that: someone I know was brought on as a constant for Beyond after they saw JJ Abrams at a Hollywood event and told him off for his utter lack of knowledge. Rather than be butthurt about it, he agreed and started to actually watch Trek this time around. Wish all creatives were like this.
I would argue that gay people being rude didn't normalize gay marriage, unless you count living normal married lives while openly gay and demonstrating peacefully in large numbers as rude (and some probably would). I feel like the gay community gained acceptance for marriage in the US by making it a fait accompli--we're here, we're going to live the way we want to, so deal with it. In the end, people did deal with it and figured out that gay marriages were as boring as straight ones, and so society marched forward. I don't see how that connects to calling people a slang word based on their race. Again, calling a Black person the n-word is in a different ballpark than calling a white person a cracker or whatever. But I don't see how being rude in the literal sense helps matters at all. I doubt any straight person was moved to accept homosexuality because someone called them a breeder. It just doesn't make sense.
Perhaps "rude" was the incorrect word here, but I would say that gays didn't get the rights they got by being nice and waiting their turn to speak either. You weren't here for when I entertained libertarian ideas and thought Glenn fucking Beck made sense. I considered myself a liberal in '05 and within my first three years here I had left the plantation, to use their words. Why a black woman was so damn ignorant of her history to entertain that is it's own post, but the videos that have poured out the injustice that existed outside of the California bubble I grew up in (one that has long since burst) woke me up like I was Carlton Banks after he got stopped for driving while black. I wasn't, am not, and likely never will be safe in this country being dark skinned. It doesn't matter that I sound white on the phone or that my mom is high yellow (AAVE term) or that I graduated near the top of my class in high school with only parking violations on my record. The first time I am pulled over by a cop could easily be my last, even in San Diego. Especially in San Diego. This isn't even a fear I grew up with. Lime I said, my mom was pretty fair skinned and there was a lotta shit she never thought to teach us because she ain't need it as a survival skills. My brother (who is even whiter that her) never got the cop talk that most black kids get by 3rd grade. Yet she screeched at me getting "labeled" for behaviors and meltdowns I couldn't control when I was a kid. I didn't understand why the rules were different for me than for white kids. I know now. Given that, you'll forgive me if I don't feel particularly inclined to handle white folks, and especially not ones who have spent the better part of two decades on average boasting about having thick skin, with kid gloves. It's not the first time we've had this conversation, either--Mewa was dragging the board over enabling Tasvir's shit from the day I set foot here back in *checks registration date* 2005. He and Chup and everyone else, other white folks include, got told to suck it up or leave over the years. They left. I haven't places where I will speak to peoe who are genuinely interested in change, but that is not Wordforge, and I accepted that fact after the 2016 election brought out ugliness I didn't think was posssible. It's too baked in at this point. I mean, one of our most popular postered turned out to be a literal Nazi FFS. If that isn't a wake-up call for a change in board culture, I dunno what is, but I don't have the spoons to fight that battle. So I'll post how I want and no o e can do shit about it, least of all Lanz who neutered rep to begin with.
Okay, I went way off on a tangent, but the TLDR is that if you're more hung up about the exact right words being used than the message being put forth, it's worth evaluating why that is. No one is owed my emotional labor for me to convince them why I deserve rights, especially if they didn't ask me.
There is being rude and being honest. @oldfella1962 may think it is rude to refer to him as a racist, but it is honesty. Sometimes honesty about who we are might be offensive. I do not necessarily take whypipo or cracker personally if is used in my presence, but then again I also try to look at the things I do to see if they fall into that racist category. That has been one of the reasons my eyes have been open to things I did not experience and was not aware of before. The terms cracker and wypipo seem to have a meaning that encompasses racist actions. cracker is a reference to the whip cracker of slavery, as far as I know, and that is a specific sort of white person. From what I am aware whypipo refers to a section of white people that do stupid racist shit. The N word referred to every single black person. These supposed white people slurs seem to be formed to refer to a section of white society that was bad, and not to a person's white skin. If you want an actual white slur that might go along with other slurs maybe whypipo works, but whitey would also work. Whypipo still seems like a bit of wordplay to me, and that still pulls away from the full group of white people.[/quote]
Hey, I drank the libertarian Kool-Aid here too (for anyone who doesn't know, libertarian Kool-Aid is really bland water with a smug sense of superiority). I was moderate/slightly left of center when I joined here, and then got introduced into libertarianism. It wasn't until years later when I literally grew up, paid attention to the world around me, and read a lot, that I realized libertarianism was a morally bankrupt philosophy pretending to be noble. Fucking libertarianism is the epitome of white privilege. And we grew up in the same town, and I'm sure our experiences were entirely different because we had different skin colors (which is unfortunate). Even though it's one of the most diverse cities in the country, it wasn't ever perfect. I vividly remember at age 9 or 10 one of my best friends being targeted for something, and his skin just happened to be much darker than mine. It was a huge wake up call, but still only a glimpse into his experience. That still colored (pardon the pun) my worldview on race because my friend was honestly much more well behaved than I was (and was top of our class once we got to High School), and I couldn't believe he was targetted. That being said, I never, ever bought into Glenn Beck, you schmuck!! I don't fucking care if I'm called a cracker, or wypipo, or a Lanzman, because it pails in comparison to actual systemic racism and racial bias.
Technically, I grew up two counties over from Sacramento I spent a year in Sacramento for college, but I always claim it cuz it was easier to point out than my own hometown that was often left off physical maps before the Internet. But yeah, despite what the right believes, California is not some kind of liberal paradise. My friend from grade school spent high school in El Paso and frigging came out in 200-fucking-3 and said Texans treated with with more respect than he got in Sacramento when he moved back out there. Considering that bullshit that happened in Roseville High last year, I can certainly believe it.
While nowhere near the celeb level I have a story along these lines that hopefully I'll get to tell in a few months.
I just want to thank you for having the courage to even approach this topic. This usually a "third rail" in society and nothing ever gets solved because no one wants to truly discuss it. So thanks! I just got in this thread so I haven't seen everyone's reply yet but I just want to push back on this point here... I don't think "Cracker" and "Wypipo" are the equivalent of the N word for whites. Not even close. When you look at the definition you provided for racism, what about those words makes you feel like the person uses it to subordinate you to them? Think about it... I'd certainly say they are derogatory and rude terms to refer to someone as, but nothing about it makes me think the person using it feels that they are better or superior to the person they are referring to. It's not them implementing a systemic mechanism to keep you oppressed. That's not the case for the N word... It was invented for that. When I first saw the word Wypipo, I have to admit that I stared at it for weeks before I knew what it was or what it referred to. At first I thought it was an acronym for when you pants is in your poophole or something but that didn't make sense... The point is that when I first saw it, there was nothing about the context of the way they used it made me thing they were putting someone down. I don' t use these terms because even though I think they are funny terms, I understand that people view them as the equivalent of the N word... and they are not.
The difference is, you can always move. Black people can't change the color of their skin. Shoulda stuck with the first paragraph. Absolutely no one thinks calling white people names will rectify hundreds of years of injustice. It isn't going to do anything. Do you cry when a two year old calls you poopy head? No one fucking cares. Say whatever you want.
Ta'Nehisi Coates is one of my fovorite authors and thinkers today. Here's how he thinks on this issue:
Funny, he hasn't been back to comment after I pointed out Canada's hypocrisy Maybe he saw the error is his ways and is off to help the Mi'kwaq nation fight for their fishing rights in Nova Scotia. People do change after all.
Yeah you keep bringing this up like it means something while you conveniently ignore the widely supported apology tour our PM has been on for the last few years and the billions in funding we’re handing out to First Nations. We’re actively working to make the situation better while you guys are still mired in your never ending cycle of bullshit with no real genuine effort being made or end in sight Bottom line is that is is better here in Canada than down in that shithole you call a country and maybe you might actually learn something from us if you stopped rubbing your vag all over wordforge for a second and listened I don’t expect much from you though
The treatment of native Americans in this country is a national shame. Even recently, with that pipeline across tribal land.
Oh wow, some apologies! That makes it all better! Would your First Nation's members agree with that? @14thDoctor @Spaceturkey do those apologies fix the fact that you two lost your lineage from your tribes?
Can’t break what’s already broken i guess I bet you’re posting that from your car stuck in a 3 hour line for the food bank seem to be a lot of those in the good old US of A these days
The historical and current treatment of native people in Canada is a complete disgrace, and the greed and corruption of the various aboriginal leaders only perpetuates and worsens things. Harper had a decent idea in pushing for financial transparency, but his tiresome and transparent racism ruined that initiative. Chretien had a great idea with eliminating the shitty reserve system that's been compared to apartheid, but the greedy chiefs and councils lied and misrepresented his proposals to protect their government cheques. In conclusion, everything sucks.
