Keltec May Have Invented the Perfect Defensive Weapon

Another thing to consider.

You use a shotgun in self defense and blow somebody away.

Either an opportunistic DA decides to charge you with something, or the perp's family sues you.

Between an 870 and this Kill-Tek, which one would you rather have shown to the jury?

dp

I concur. While I take everything he writes with a grain of salt, if I was on trial, I would want Massad Ayoob as an expert witness. Time and again, he's talked about juries convicting when a black rifle was used and illustrated that with comments from the jurors that they wouldn't have voted to convict had a more conventional looking rifle or shotgun been used.

It's a Catch-22, really. In most circumstances, the more less-than-lethal tools you pack, the harder it is to justify using lethal force. Now, obviously, you should have to justify using lethal force, but it gets harder as every year goes by. Let me use a story from years ago to illustrate the point.

A star athlete at the University of Alabama got smoked up on something. He was just driving around the country-side while out of his gourd. He ended up getting behind a Forest Service truck in Tuscaloosa and followed him, unknowingly, all the way here. He followed the guy right into their parking garage.

When the driver, a non-Ranger civilian volunteer (about 70 years old), got out and challenged him, the guy started rolling his eyes and babbling. He called us.

We sent one guy up there to see what was going on. When our guy tried to get the guy out of his car, he became combative. When I finally got there, I was the seventh officer on the scene.

This kid was beating the shit out of six police officers. They had emptied four complete cans of OC on him to no effect. They were all hitting him with their batons to no effect. He'd already broken two officer's arms and had choked one out.

When I got out, I got Old Faithful, my four feet long old fashioned oak riot baton. I went in swinging for the bleachers and caught him right across the shoulder blades. That stunned him just enough for us to tackle him.

Frankly, I'm thankful that it did work. Old Faithful was Plan C. If that hadn't worked, Plan D was to shoot him. We had no other alternative. It had reached that point.

Today, a lot of our officers carry Tasers, and I'm relatively sure they would have ended that a lot sooner had we had them.

That's the catch. A year ago, I would have been able to stand in court and legally justify shooting that kid. Today, I can't. I'm NOT saying that's a bad thing. I'm glad there are more alternatives out there. But, at the same time, there is now more room for the jury to second guess me.

That's why, in private company, I advise private citizens to stay away from the less than lethal stuff if you're going to carry a gun. You don't want a prosecutor to get up in front of a jury and ask, "Mr. Dib, you spent $500 on a Taser X12 Shotgun and a box of Taser Shotgun Shells. Yet, when the "victim" broke into your house, you reached for your pistol and walked right past your shotgun. Was that because you WANTED to kill Mr. Doe???"

And what's hilarious is that being that high on drugs he's probably already on the edge of death and if you guys taser him it could be enough to push him over the edge and of course you'd all get blamed for it. (by his family and the public at large)

"I keep the taser shells to torture the Raccoons that invade my property."

Ayoob's columns are the only must-read things for me in the gun mags. Good analyses and good advice.

I'm intrigued by the "Judge" .410/.45 revolver, but fuck if I'll ever use one for self-defense with "The Judge" engraved on the barrel. An attorney would have a field day with that.

So are there any actual examples of people who got screwed because they used a scary looking/sounding gun in a clear self defense situation that was otherwise allowable under the law?

I used to keep and file the gun mags that had noteworthy articles. My wife broke me of that habit.

But, yes. There was one Ayoob article. He testified in this case as an expert witness. The jury convicted. He (Ayoob) talked to the jurors after as part of his research. The ones that agreed to an interview admitted that they convicted because the home owner used an evil black rifle (an AR-15). They all said that if he'd used a conventional hunting rifle, shotgun, or handgun, they wouldn't have voted to convict. They said that was actually passed around the table in the jury room.

I don't recall any specifics either, but Ayoob says that if you shoot a burglar with a gun that has a mean-sounding model name like "Ninja assassin" engraved on the barrel/slide, the prosecuting attorney WILL tell the jury that you're so obsessed with killing and mayhem that you bought a gun with such a name, hoping it would kill better. Or some such nonsense.

I wonder what a prosecutor might say about me should I one day find it expedient to deal with an intruder or other threat in my home with one of my edged weapons?

You know it really depends on where you live and your local state laws.

But I'd bet they would look at you hacking someone up extra carefully before no billing it.

Found this on the internet. Some claim this to be a defect and I don't have enough shotgun experience to know if it is or not but I was taught when racking the slide your finger is off the trigger (not out of the trigger guard but off far enough to let the trigger reset).

If you pull the trigger and then rack it while holding the trigger it won't go bang when you pull the trigger. You'd have to re-rack it.

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"And then this, this...teal ninja...set upon my helpless victim with a samurai sword! It wasn't enough to get the victim out of his house, the defendant wanted him to bleed..."

My mom carries the Judge.

Nope, not a defect. Holding the trigger down while racking it keeps the trigger from resetting.

I'm going to assume it is designed to so in a way that doesn't discharge the firearm?

Those must be extremely popular, based on the fact that Smith and Wesson is now copying Taurus and producing a similar revolver called 'The Governor.'

As a defensive weapon, the Judge is far more capable when loaded with .45 LC than with .410. Unless you shoot someone in the face and eyes with it, a load of birdshot from a .410 is bound to result in a merely superficial wound, gruesome though it may appear. A .45 slug will have far better penetration and stopping power.

Incidentally, Taurus brought a 28 gauge handgun to the 2011 SHOT Show, apparently unaware that the ATF considers such things as destructive devices. The gun--it was a behemoth revolver (see below)--got confiscated and Taurus says there are no plans to offer it to the public.

I. Hate. The. ATF. Yeah, a 28 gauge is more destructive than a .50 S&W.

That would make a good raccoon gun.

Fuck the ATF and fuck the Destructive Device classification, it's been used for nothing more than putting an end to odd looking shotguns

An update on Keltec......

http://www.ktog.org/cgi-bin/yabb2/YaBB.pl?num=1296065107

Also a YouTube video showing the new version against the old.

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I know I said I didn't like the price point but I'm seriously considering overruling myself and putting money away for one.

So a jury can be so incredibly stupid that they cannot comprehend that "dead" is dead regardless of the type of weapon used?

Do they make a lot of guns in pink? Maybe with sequins on them too?

any chance of a slug barrel?

They stated in the video that the barrels were going to be rifled.

^ah, maybe I'll watch the video now

Damn, that is a nice shotgun.

I love that it looks like some kind of pulse weapon that the Jem Had'ar would use.

Update:

Found a site where you can pre-order it.

Price: $614.99

http://www.thegunsource.com/item/516040_Kel-Tec_Rifles_Shotguns_KSG_12_18_5_14 1_TOP_PIC_RAIL.aspx

Yeah, no thanks.

Compared to some prices I've seen on shotguns that is not to bad.